I think that when Angel sacrificed both his and Buffy's "happiness" so that she could be happy was kind of a cop-out. What he needed was space so that he wouldn't be able to let Angelus out again. And what's the logic there really? Making someone miserable so that they can be happy, ha! And if you put any stock at all into the whole "cookie dough" conversation (which I don't!), then it doesn't hold up.. since he's clearly ready to jump back into their relationship at that point, even though he has a million things going on.

Spike on the other hand, sacrificed the demon inside of him for Buffy. In facing the demon trials to regain his soul, he risked possible death, insanity, and endless torment. He did something that no other vampire would have been able to willingly to. And then he sacrificed his life for her (yes, and the world) in Chosen. But you cannot say that she wasn't a pretty motivating factor in that decision. It's true that he did it largely for his own redemption, but it was Buffy that made him want to be redeemed.

i think Angel, not only because i ship Bangel. Yes Spike did give up his demon side for her, but Angel struggled the most of with the fact that they couldnt do it without it bringing the worst part of him out, Angelus. He put her happiness and her safety first, before his own.

Well, nosemuffin(Shaela) your absolutely right. Buffy had two boyfriends who made there sacrifices to save the world. Buffy in fact killed Angel in Seasons Finale of 2, when Angel became Angelus when was about destory the world with hell. She had no choice to kill him to save the world.

Spike was the greatest act of sacrifice the world to save the one he loves. In the end of Chosen proves it all Buffy choose Spike over Angel to be the champion to the save world from The First Evil. Buffy knew in her heart that Spike was the one all this long. Angel was the hardest to get over for Buffy. She hurt from Angel. Spike was only one that she could believe and her champion to save the world.

I don't think he put her own happiness before his own, or her safety. Let's not forget, Buffy died anyway, while he jumped into a portal to save the new woman he loved.

As for Spike, not only did he give up everything he was, a man he loved being, he died for her. And he also stayed and took care of her sister during the months she was dead and helped out her friends. He didn't have to do that. Spike gave up everything he was for her, because he loved her.

again i completley agree with nosemuffin

I'm a Bangel, but I think that Spike getting his soul puts him a little ahead of Angel on this one. However, I can't think of any situation where Angel could have sacrificed something for Buffy and he didn't--I think given equal opportunity, Angel and Spike would sacrifice the same amount for Buffy. They both love her.

Nose and Nika, (where's the strawberry wielding debs?) are on point for me.

I believe that Angel leaving was a cop -out, completely and utterly. I understand the need for him to move on (he had a calling - it was called Spinoff) and how he believed that he was doing what was best for Buffy but at the same time I find it insulting to her character.

On Spike, I believe that he has always given himself completely to the person he loves. Spike loved being the Big Bad, it was his pride and joy, yes he was chipped out of it but then instead of just using that power to set up a new powerful vamp family or something equally as nefarious (like the word usage?) he joins up for her, eventually gains his soul to be the man she deserves and then sacrifices himself for her. Yes, it was his character's hero journey, but his entire journey was planned out in his heart, and Buffy holds that roadmap.

Would u participate in a small imagination exercise? If u were on Spike's shoes would u be able to sacrifice what he did for your loved one? Now, if u were on Angel's, could u do what he did for your loved one?

For me, I would do what Spike did in a heartbeat, but there is no way i could "cop out" from true happiness...

Actually, I have done something very similar to what Angel did. I left because the relationship was unhealthy.. even though we very much loved each other. It was unhealthy for different reasons, but I won't go into them.

As far as martyring myself for the greater good. I would really like to be able to say that it would be an easy thing to do, but I honestly don't know that I could.

I don't think I could do what Spike did actually, I'll admit that, but I could do what Angel did.

what arabella said.

im total bangel but


spike died for buffy and the whole world
period.

Angel just never had the chance to "die" for Buffy. I mean, he was on his own show. Can't go off killing the main character of the spin-off show to show a point when he just comes back for a guest appearance!

Everyone needs to put that into perspective too, there were many things that could have/couldn't have happened with the way the two shows ran. Like with SMG being unavailble to do guests on David's show. So many missed opportunities. (For Angel's 100th eppy, Buffy was originally written in the role Cordy ended up getting).

I'm a b/a fan, so I will point out the "I will remember you" episode. When Angel gives up a mortal life with Buffy. But again, if Angel stayed with Buffy as a human, then there wouldn't be an "Angel tv series".

We can argue this for years. It's all up to personal preference. The really sad thing is that so many things could have happened in canon but never made it because conflicts.

he got his soul back 4 her , nuff said .

Angel definitely made more sacrifices for Buffy than Spike did. First of all, saying that Spike died for Buffy isn't strictly true. I mean, she was definitely part of the reason, but the main reason he did it was to save the world, and to redeem himself - selfish motivation. I don't mean that in a negative way, obviously he wasn't being selfish, it was a very noble act, but it was partly selfishly rather than selflessly motivated in that it was to redeem himself and prove he was a good man.

Also, I would find it absolutely ridiculous if anyone were suggesting that Angel wouldn't die for Buffy, because he risks his life many times for her, as Spike does in fighting too, but he also puts himself in front of her in order to save her life, e.g. when he tries to get the Judge to kill him instead of Buffy, without a thought. The fact that Angel would die for her too doesn't diminish what Spike did, but it shows that his is not a greater sacrifice - Angel would willingly have done it in his place had the amulet been meant for him.

However, Angel makes several sacrifices for Buffy that I don't think Spike would have or could have made. For example, him leaving her at the end of season 3, which was motivated by selfless reasons - he wanted her to be happy and to have as normal a life as possible - something which he knows she has always wanted - despite how much he loved her and wanted to be with her. That in and of itself is an amazing act of love because he completely places her happiness and what's right for her ahead of what he wants, showing how important she is to him.

Again obviously I Will Remember You is an example of a selfless sacrifice made for Buffy, perhaps even more poignant, because Angel not only gives up his chance to be with her, but also his chance of becoming human again, which he so dearly wishes for. It is literally his dream come true, yet he gives up his own happiness in order to save Buffy's life. Kind of awful of Joss then to kill Buffy anyway, but that's Joss! But this is an utterly selfless act, done out of love for Buffy, and I personally don't think Spike ever matched that. I'm not saying he didn't love her, because in season 7 he obviously did, and before that he came as close as he could to love while still being soulless. But Spike never managed to be that selfless towards Buffy or sacrifice everything in the same way, purely for her own good and happiness.

The soul thing I personally don't take as an act of love or great sacrifice in the same way. Partly because of a technicality: he was still a soulless demon at the time, which I believe makes him incapable of love (though Spike comes as close as possible to love), and therefore incapable of acts of love. But that's just a technicality! The main reason I don't think that this act measures up to what Angel did for Buffy is that it was selfishly motivated. He states on numerous occasions that he got his soul back for Buffy, which makes it appear selfless, but in fact he tells her in the episode where she finds out about the soul that he got it back so that she would forgive him for what he did (the attempted rape) and so that she would love him, or something to that effect anyway. Therefore, this was not a selfless sacrifice, as Angel leaving or turning back time was, it is an act motivated by his desire to be forgiven and loved by her - an act motivated by his hope that he will gain something from her in return, rather than by his desire to do something utterly for her.

oops sorry that was such a long ramble!!!

There wasn't one positive thing that Angel did for Buffy. He slept with her, turned evil, killed and tormented her friends, and left her. Spike, however, was tortured by Glory for her, comforted her in her depression, fought for his soul for her, and died for her and the entire world. And april_showers, not one tiny part of his sacrifice was selfish. His motivator was saving the woman he loved and redeeming himself. I can't see how that is qualified as "selfish". Spike was the one who sacrificed everything for Buffy. I can't see how even the most stubborn can not see that.

Giving up all his own happiness so that she could be safe and a have a sun filled life, that is like the ultimate sacrifice!

okay seriosuly...give up happiness they both did. (Spike gave up his life as a vampire)

Give up life only spike did!

Hello? Angel gave up being human just so she could live a little bit longer! It's what he wanted ther most in the whole world. True, Spike got his soul for Buffy but he did that to try and MAKE Buffy love him. To be like Angel cuz even he knew she was still in love with him!

All this stuff about Angel making sacrifices for her?
What a load of bull! All he did was leave...ooh what a sacrifice.
Whereas Spike; endured toture, kept protecting Dawn for Buffy even though she was dead, he got her through her depression, he got his soul back for her, was the only one truly there for her and who truly understood her, and he gave his life for her.

I'm sorry you can ship whoever you want but Angel never sacrafised anything for Buffy.Yes you will say but he sacrafaised beeing human for her but when you look at things on the other hand if Angel had gotten his soul like Spike did he would have never had to leave Buffy he could have just made his soul permanent to be whit her but he didn't.He never loved her whe he was whitout sould while Spike loved her even when he didn't had one.Just tell me what positive thing did Angel brought in Buffy's life.All he ever did was caused her pain and trauma which didn't heal for years!After ''I will remember you'' Angel didn't even thougt about Buffy,he was never interested on what she was doing,did she needed his help than he becam obssesed whit Darla,slept whit her knwoing he could have lost his soul which meant that Angelus could have tried to end the world again or start traying to kill Buffy again.The only reason he went to help Buffy was because Wolfram and Heart said that it would help Connor and Cordy.He wouldn't have even help help her if it wasn't for them.Oh and he even said in the finale that he didn't femeber beeing a human so not only did he make Buffy forget but he forgot too.
As for Spike getting his soul.He got his soul because he finally realsied that he whitout his soul he would never be the man Buffy truly deserves or at leats he wouldn' completlly understand her.He knew it was the right thing to do,he choose it soemthing Angel never did.And Buffy loved Spiek whotout soul remember in ''First Date'' ''Whye veryone think I'm STILL in love whit Spike?''It might have not been in the script but Joss kept it so that means somthing.And in ''Chosen'' Buffy didn't spent what might ahve neen her last days on Earth whit Angel(I don't knwo about you but I would want to spent my last days alaive whit someone who I loved and charised),didn't choose him as her Champion and didn't even say she loves him and neaither did he.It was Spike whom she said was in her heart and it was Spike who she choose as her and everybody else's champion and it was Spike who she told she loves.Her last words on the show were''Spike''.She didn't even contact Angel after that and Andrew even told him she didn't trust him anymore so yes Buffy deffinatlly moved on from him.And if you even think about it Buffy and Angel's love nearly derstoyed the world while Buffy and Spike's love saved it.Spike gave his life for her and the other even though he belived Buffy would never love him.She was even willing to stay and die whit him if he didn't tell her to go.Even though he belived she didn't love him he still wanted her to leave.That is true love to me.

it's spike for sure, because spike asked for his soul angel didn't even want it. Spike stayed with buffy when Angel walked out.

LOL LOL LOL

Go Spike fans. It ur birthday!!!! :)

I prefer bangel, but deff. Spike. I never did fully forgive Angel for leaving, and then doing the same bs w/ cordelia w/out the excuses! So, when Angel wanted her back in the last season, I was glad that she didn't, and that Angel "got the brush off for capt. peroxide." Spike deserved that, and so did Angel, in diff. ways!