Hmm. Again, you may not want to be so upfront in the title. There are ALOT of fans on this spot that don't really care about the quality of the films and care more about the guys and their physical attraction, so they may take it the wrong way.

I understand that the first two movies weren't the best: as movies or portrayals of the books. I can agree with you on some points and I will try to be unbiased. Even though I am a fan, I can be critical too. Trust me! Lol But, might I point out, you are verging on Twilight hating again. Maybe not your intention, like I have pointed out before, but it seems like you are being very straight up and showing your hatred for the books. Since you are on the Twilight spot, just... be wary of that and try not to get to close to the line. :)

The first two films were a disappointment, yes. As a fan of the books, I was disappointed with the first movie and the second movie, even more. However, as a movie lover, I thought Twilight was complete in it's story. Was the film state of the art? NO. However, it was indie. It was cheap but the movie obtained alot of profit :) The best part of Twilight was... it was emotion-filled and it had HEART.

New Moon definitely lacked heart. The movie was neutral. The cinematography was better. The tone of the movie was better, however, New Moon lacked what the first movie had, and that's passion. I didn't feel too much in New Moon. It wasn't raw and trite like the first movie and it wasn't emotionally captivating to me. Also, the scriptwriter is biased to her favorite characters or those she finds extremely interesting and therefore, leaks into her writing. Some of which she writes is sometimes out of character or doesn't show all of his characteristics. That's my take.

Eclipse, having read the script, I don't know what to think. From the trailers, I've actually like Eclipse trailers more than all of the previous ones. However, certain set reports and information I have gathered has me slightly anxious. I'm nervous to watch the movie, but I'm sure it will be better than the first two. I'm not getting my hopes up, but all I can say is that Eclipse can't be worse than the first two.

Well as I have said before hating itself is not my intention.
But I'm not gonna lie when it comes to the movies.
I hate the movies.
I really hate the movies.
If this offends anyone then I'm sorry but thats just my opinion on the film take it or leave it.
First of all when it comes to the first film this is what I thought of it.
For one thing it acts even more pretentious then the book did.(The scene in the restaurant)
Another thing is the acting.
Kristen Stewart is a horrible actress. At least in this film.
She seems to put little to no emotion in her character and since she is the main character this makes the movie really boring to sit through.
Then there is Robert Pattinson.
Where Bella put little to no emotion into her role as Bella, Robert seemed to just not care at all when it came to playing Edward. Out of all the actors there it felt like that he was just there to make a quick buck and thats it. The other characters all range from decent to horrible(the best actor in this film was Bella's father) and ultimately made the experience really dreadful to watch.
As for New moon?
New moon was basically the same thing except while the first one was bad this one was just horrible.
There are some other factors as well but I'll dive into those later.

I won't be disappointed if Eclipse is bad because, i have come to the conclusion that no movie can be better than books. No matter what book is made into a movie.. It won't be better.

well i saw the trailer for it and it was the best twilight saga trailer i have seen. the other two were not that great. true. but i liked the twilight movie better then new moon. im very excited for eclipse and i hope im not let down.

"If this offends anyone then I'm sorry but thats just my opinion on the film take it or leave it."

Just saying right now... remember. You are on the Twilight Spot. This spot is a place where twilight fans: crazy, insane, sane, fanatic fans can express themselves freely. Saying "take it or leave it"... that's a anatagonizing phrase towards fans of any mindset. Just saying. A little offensive if taking it the wrong way. The way I see it... you are on Twilight fans' 'land'. And saying that could infuriate some fans. Lol just be careful.

And also.. Kristen is actually a great actress. Her previous works such as The Messengers, The Cake Eaters, Speak, etc are very good. Twilight just fails to showcase the actors' talent.

I will agree with you though. New Moon was horrible. For many reasons.

Well I haven't seen those movies so I have no comment on those.
But every movie I've ever seen her in she was either bad or mediocre.
And it is actually possible to make a movie that is better then the original source material.
A good example of this would be the lord of the rings trilogy.
The books were long had a good plot but the way it was executed made it a very boring read. The movies cut out a lot of the unnecessary stuff and made it very entertaining.
Oh another thing that was really sloppy in the film was the special effects. While I am aware that special effects don't make a movie, this is twilight. While I don't like it I am aware that it has a large fan base and with this in mind I think they could have come up with something better then just fast forward effects (I laughed when Edward carried Bella up the mountain do to the sloppy effect of his vampire speed)
And the "climactic battle" at the end of the film was also sloppy.
All it was Edward tossing the guy across the room, leaping over to the guy and tossing him again or getting tossed himself. Its definitely not the kind of fight I imagine when I think of vampires fighting.

Just curious... have you heard the budgets to these films? Twilight started out as an indie film. Those are independent films that never have a big budget.

Twilight has $37 million. That is HARDLY enough to do anything. That covers lights, travel, camera transportation, post-prod, the whole shabang. So for the budget they had, they did a pretty good job. $37 million is a very very small budget.

New Moon was $50 million. The special effects were way better in the second movie. Eclipse budget hasn't been announced, but I think it's 70 million.

You have to understand that Twilight was not intended to be a hit. It was just another independent film that happened to do good. Just like SlumDog Millionare. NO ONE expected it to get Oscars! It depends on the audience and what appeals to them. Obviously, Twilight has appealed to alot of the general public. That is the reason why it has done so well.

So those numbers, the movies and the edit and effects are pretty dang good, especially with what Summit gives us to work with. Which, I feel like it's rather low, especially with the profit they earn.

With 30 million you can do a lot with special effects beyond just lousy fast forward effects.
And with something as popular as Twilight it should not have been made by an independent film company.

Yeah. 30 million with only special effects is average. But they also had studio payments, transportation payments and weather conditions. Transportation with the cameras is ALOT of the budget. It's a ridiculous amount of money to movie the A and B Cameras, along with 2nd Unit. As someone who studies film production, I can see where all the money goes. And it is necessary to have money spent in all areas, not just for special effects.

And that's what I'm saying. You are missing my point. No one knew Twilight would be popular, therefore, the independent film company took it. Paramount and Warner Brothers were offered the job, but they didn't take it. Because they didn't think Twilight would be that great. And, so it turns out, they were wrong.

Again. With that much money they could have stiff come up with something better then that.
And if I may point out.
The first movie came out when the book series was pretty much finished and had done very well.
So again there is no excuse for it to be handed to to lousy film company. And another thing. A low budget does not excuse a bad film. Nor does it being independent. Because there are a lot of good independent films that did great.

Taking into account, the camera transportation costs and the weather conditions (keep in mind where they filmed, they had to constantly move around, costing more money than necessary), I stand by my reasoning. It also depends on who the director knows. Catherine Hardwicke was more of an impulsive director and she directed movies different than Twilight. Chris Weitz happened to know people who were experts in the CGI department.

Yes, Twilight was filmed when the first three books were complete. Breaking Dawn was released August 2nd of that year (2008). However, alot of people still didn't know about it. Like the actors had said during Twilight promotion, if you are outside the Twilight world (meaning you haven't heard of the books), then you don't notice Twilight. But when you had read the books, you see it everywhere you go. The fanbase was pretty successful, but not nearly as explosive until the first movie was released. The first fanatic experience was comic-con July of 2008. That was the first time anyone saw how much potential Twilight had.

I'M NOT SAYING THERE IS NO EXCUSE for the independent film company. It's actually Paramount and WB's fault for not choosing Twilight as their next project. But, you are saying that it was so popular that Twilight should have been better and produced by a better company. However, I am disagreeing because no one knew it was so popular. No one could know. Hardly anyone knew what the books were until the first teaser trailer for Twilight came out that March.

And I don't think I said a big budget equals a good movie. I'm just saying it helps in terms of special effects, which is clearly what you want.

The foundation on where you are pulling your information from to feed your accusing statement is incorrect. You are basing it on your views when you weren't a fan from the beginning. The series was successful since 2005, yes. But it wasn't popular like it is now. So I don't see why you are saying a better company should have produced the film when they didn't even know.

Alright fair enough I'll give you that one.
However this does not change the fact that the movies are still horrible.

Maybe not. But we can hope right? Lol Even though I don't like the movies, there's still alot of things I like about the movies. It's reading in between the lines. Just because the movie has terrible effects and mediocre acting, doesn't mean the film doesn't bring something to the table.

Yeah, 30 million for a movie like Twilight is really small. I agree with mandapanda, it would be a lot of money if it was only going towards special effects, but they had to use that money for everything.

I agree that Kristen Stewart's work in both of the movies was dreadful, but her work in some of her other movies was better. I know from interviews that Rob put a lot of thought into Edward, but I agree that his portrayal is a bit weird. :/ I thought that the secondary characters really shines considering the material. The scripts were pretty dreadful.

And I have to agree with mandapanda again that while Twilight was rather sloppy, there was so much heart in the directing. New Moon was a little cleaner, but I could feel the director's lack of passion for the project.

Well personally I couldn't get any kind of heart feeling from the first movie at all. (possibly due to my own dislike of the novels)
But it just felt to me like they threw all this stuff together and in the end it just didn't come together properly

Hmm. I have no doubt that Chris Weitz wasn't passionate. I mean, he was SO good to the fans. He understood the over-passionate ones. He even reached out to a fan with possible time in jail, BUT, his passion wasn't captured in the film. Since he is a "better" director with better experience, it was possible that the movie could have lost the indie and raw feel. And it did. I still respect Chris Weitz as a director. He's a great guy, but his direction for New Moon wasn't what I wanted :(

Mcmadness, the heart feeling I am referring to is just the passion and the raw feel. The film was really raw and unedited. The feelings and the work put into it was intense. That's what I'm talking about. But I have to agree with you. The scenes they "threw" together didn't come together properly. Very unfortunate. Twilight has so much potential.

Well if you ask me after reading the novel it never had any potential at all but thats just my opinion and your welcome to argue.
And I never got any feelings at all from the film because of the bad acting and bad dialogue.

I don't see what the point is in arguing. You've started about three forums talking about why you don't like Twilight, so I see an argument would be moot. You are obviously standing by your opinion, as am I. Yes, the books aren't the best, but people love the story. They relate to characters and they see something in them that they can relate to or their traits. Why tell them they are wrong to think that? Believe it or not, and agree or disagree, people are inspired by Twilight or the characters. Why downplay that inspiration, whatever it is? Isn't it good that people are inspired?

And try being unbiased, keep an open mind. I can look past the bad acting and bad dialog. I still think the movie can be enjoyable. Maybe it's because I'm a fan, I can't really say. I cringe in some places, but the movie can be enjoyable if I want it to.

Well my problem is that I fail to see how anyone can relate to how unlikable these characters are. Especially Bella who has to be one of the most selfish people I have ever seen. Not to mention the fact that there is no form of true romance to be heard of in this story.
Which is why I'm here. After reading the novels the only experience I ever got from it was bafflement.

Well that's an opinion right? Everyone who likes/dislikes the book, they are basing their liking of it on opinion. There's no right or wrong answer. Each person who reads the books, either likes it dislikes it. There's no absolute. It depends on the person.

When you say, you fail to see how anyone can relate to the characters, it's because, maybe you can't. Other people see what you don't see. Everyone takes the story as they will.

It's like a pastor. He preaches on a Sunday and talks about Jesus Christ. How Jesus Christ had come to this earth to save sinners. It's for the audience to believe or not believe and either to accept or reject Christ. No one is forcing people to believe or not believe. No one should force someone into believing or not believing. That's a gift from God: free-will.

This analogy can be applied with Twilight. In no way is Twilight like Jesus Christ or anything spiritual. But, the principal behind people deciding if they like Twilight, that's what I'm getting at.

People will relate to characters. That's just how it is. Or people will dislike the characters. I can relate to Bella and I can dislike her at times. Like I said, nothing is absolute. There's nothing right or wrong. There can be compromise. Some middle ground.

The reason why you are here is trying to understand the Twilight phenomenon. Now, since you are here to try and understand, shouldn't you set your prejudices aside and your thoughts aside and keep an open mind? If you are truly trying to understand, you would set your opinions aside, here what others have to say, then make your conclusion. The forums you started aren't a discussion. More of a debate, a factorial conversation. It doesn't sound like you are trying to understand, but just stating what you hate about the series. Try keeping an open mind. Please understand that not everyone has to like Twilight or has to understand the phenomenon. Even hardcore fans of Twilight sometimes wonder why Twilight it's so popular! Or wish it wasn't so popular! Not all fans are crazy. Some fans just enjoy the books, which is how it should be, because that's what started all of this.

Perhaps people can relate to those characters I will admit that.
But that doesn't change the fact that for the most part these characters: extremely unlikable, really selfish, are incredibly stupid in their thought patterns and ultimately give the wrong impression on what true love is. Its not rocket science. When stuff like this is created there should be no excuse for it to be published none at all. And yes maybe I am coming off as a bit hateful but its just the way I see it. Normally I can keep an open mind to other people's opinions on thing and will try to do my best here as well buts its just so hard because its really, REALLY obvious why the characters and plot in this novel fail at doing anything right in the bare nececities of this kind of novel.

Ah, but now what you think of the characters "extremely unlikable, really selfish, are incredibly stupid" is your opinion yet again. Alot of people don't think they are those things. And just because someone isn't a fan, doesn't mean they don't like traits in the characters.

Who said Twilight was perfect? No one did. You are talking like people claim it is, but it isn't. Even if they do claim Twilight is perfect, it's not. Nothing is perfect.

"When stuff like this is created there should be no excuse for it to be published none at all." Really? That makes no sense. Are you saying things like this shouldn't be published? Because you don't like, it doesn't mean others won't like it. That's a rather silly argument. I don't like Harry Potter, but obviously alot of people do. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean it shouldn't be published.

"...buts its just so hard because its really, REALLY obvious why the characters and plot in this novel fail at doing anything right in the bare nececities of this kind of novel." Yet again, that is your opinion. And it isn't obvious. You are forcing your opinion on others, saying it is obvious, when it ISN'T obvious. What you think is obvious may not be obvious to other people.

And just another note... I hardly think Twilight is the bible for real life relationships. So your point is moot.

I am not going to lie, the movies could have beeen better, but since i am a true twilight fan i look past the not good acting parts and enjoy what is really going on, like edward and bella's relatioship!!

Ah but you see I can point out exactly why these characters are either selfish, unlikeable or incredibly stupid. Thats the one thing that makes me hard to believe how anyone could like the characters over all. And there is no relation ship beyond physical here. They do not even hint at it being emotional.

And again, what you point out exactly why the characters are selfish/unlikeable/stupid is YOUR OPINION. You don't seem to grasp that not everyone will agree with you. Not everyone will think your reasons of "the characters are stupid" is correct.

And, emotional, to you, isn't the same as emotional to others. You are once again, talking in absolutes. People find special meaning in the many characters. Who are you to tell them they are wrong? Especially, your reasons for telling them they are wrong are strictly based on your opinions and what you prefer?

I'm just going to throw out a pretty basic idea here. Sorry if I sound harsh or pessimistic, but I think I'm being realistic when I say:

It doesn't matter how many times you say Twilight is bad. There is pretty much no possibility of changing someone's opinion. It doesn't matter how logical you are or how many times you spell it out, odds are, the fan is not going to care. People become a fan of things usually off of their immediate reaction, and that is hard to dissuade later on. Someone can even agree with what you're saying, but still be a fan of that thing despite of it all. You CANNOT force people to agree with you and you cannot always change anyone's mind.

Think about your favorite food. Let's use pizza as an example. Let's say you have loved pizza for years, and someone comes up to you and says "Pizza is terrible, and I'll tell you why. It's greasy, the ingredients are low quality, the crust is soggy, the sauce is bland, the cheese is moldy, it's really just gross. I don't understand how you can like it."

Would you automatically stop liking pizza just because the person had a seemingly logical explanation? Absolutely not.

So when you say "The characters in Twilight are unrelatable, and I can tell you why: They're selfish, they do the wrong thing, unlikeable, and stupid." It's like trying to convince a pizza lover that there is no logical reason for them to like pizza. They're probably just going to say "I don't care, I still like it." and they will keep saying that no matter how many times you try to convince them not to.