This is coming from a HP fan. all of these reasons were compiled in a list and I replied to them all to prove them wrong. But I think No. 28 is a valid reason (wow, that's a first) so you could check that out.

1. Robert Pattinson, can you say HOT? And he's totally sexy when he sparkles!

So? Hotness has absolutely no correlation to acting ability. He was also in Harry Potter first.


2. Taylor Lautner, I mean, have you SEEN those muscles?

NOT HOT. Strange nose, closed up eyes and no acting ability.

3. Kristen Stewart. An extremely talented and beautiful actress, with loads of potential.

Ugly and emotionless. No talent whatsoever.

4. The Volturi. REALISTIC villains, instead of insane freaks in cloaks, like Voldemort and the Death Eaters.

The Volturi wear cloaks too, you dumbass. And they are vampires which isn't anymore realistic than wizards because they are both fictional.

5. Because its just common sence to like twilight!!! Haha. Romance means everything. Bella and Edward are like, MENT 4 each other, and everything is just......PERFECT!! In Harry potter, u would that that harry and harmonie would like...fall in love or something....and then u watch people die in freaky ways, and then there are creepy things....GAHH!!! but yea. (:

Romance does not mean everything. That is a horrible message to send out to the pre-teens who watch twilight. It makes them beleive they need a boyfriend to be capable people, and girls should learn to independent because they do not need men. Also the whole beauty of Harry Potter is that it is unexpected and J.K. Rowling isn't afraid to kill off her characters or put them in unexpected relationships, because that is how REAL LIFE WORKS.

6. Because it's one of the greatest love stories ever!! Harry Potter is good too, but Twilight has way more romance and more hot guys....EDWARD, JASPER, EMMETT, CARLISLE!! Need I say more!

As I said, hotness has no correlation to acting ability. And Harry Potter has hot guys too. Harry (Daniel Radcliffe), Ron (Rupert Grint), Draco (Tom Felton) and CEDRIC (ROBERT PATTINSON)


7. Yes, we all know that Harry Potter and Twilight are both fiction, but Twilight is clearly better. When I read a book, I like to imagine myself in the plot or relate to the story somewhat. Aside from the vampire theme, Twilight actually takes place in a REAL town with up to date things. ex) cars, school, etc. I'm sorry but I just can't picture myself on a flying train, eating chocolate covered frogs, headed to a non existent magical school. In my opinion, Twilight is obviously better.

Harry Potter takes place in the real up-to-date world as well, if you haven't noticed but it does not happen in the non-wizard world. It happens in the wizard world where they have magic and do not need electronics or anything. In the vampire world, like the Volturi, do you think they have ipads? didn't think so.


8. OMGGG Harry POtter is messed up. Like seriusly, he needs to grow up and stop being so boring cuz edward is like waaaaaaay more AMAZINNNG. therees no love in hary potter and nobodies hot who wants to read a book without hot peeps?

AGAIN, hotness has no correlation to acting ability and it doesn't matter. Harry Potter has realistic love aswell. Who gets married in highschool and falls in love as soon as they meet? Ron and Hermione have a friendship first as most REAL relationships do. It develops so beautifully to show a truthful portrayal of childhood love. Its awkward and unexpected just like real love. I'm sorry you can't see that.

9. Each book in the twilight series has a different story line. It is mainly about Bella's Lovestory but in the 1st book it was about how Edward had to save Bella and in each book the story changes. The main reason of the book is for Bella To become A vampire. Then after that it is the story with Renesmee. In Harry Potter it takes 7 or 8 books to get to the point. Killing the one who must not be named. it drags on and on and becomes boring.

I don't even understand how you can say that. I can not tell any of the twilight books apart because 1. I don't care and 2. they are all exactly the same thing. I don't think you have ever seen Harry Potter OR Twilight.

10. Twilight has a more reasonable plot than HarryPotter. Look at Harry and you'll see he's more angsty than Bella. And all the Harry Potter books are like Harry being "My life sucks" and then Voldemort shows up and he's like "I'm going to kill you" and Harry's all like "No way" and then Harry wins in the end. It's way obvious, especially when the author already tells you how many books there's going to be. I mean, why can't we live in total suspense on what's going to happen next? Twilight gives that suspense that something amazing is going to happen that Harry Potter never gave us. Plus, Harry Potter is a wizard and wizards are demonic creatures. Who would want to root for a demon as the good guys? In twilight, everyone's a vampire, and vampires aren't Satan's spawn.

EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID IS WRONG. VAMPIRES ARE (IF YOU HAVE EVER READ A BOOK EVER YOU WOULD KNOW THIS) CONSIDERED DEMONIC AND SATANIC. IN VAMPIRE LEGEND VAMPIRES CAN NOT STEP ON HOLY GROUND, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE DEAD LIVING AND THEREFORE ENEMIES OF GOD. BUT THAT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE RELIGION IS AN STUPID THING TO MENTION ON A WEBSITE BECAUSE IT COULD EXCLUDE PEOPLE OF OTHER RELIGIONS.


11. In harry potter all they do is fly around on brooms and kill people with magic sticks (wands) I mean, really?

Harry Potter is a complex and in depth story that has much more hidden meaning than you could ever understand. In twilight all they do is run around without shirts, fighting over a stupid, confused adolescent girl.


12. Edward wasn't a dork. Yeah, sometimes, dorks are cute. However, Harry was a bit too dorky and I can't see why girls even liked him.

He had this amazing thing called a personality. He had layers and complexity. And he's hot. That's why girls like him.

13. Harry Potter is for virgin nerds. Twilight is for cool and mature people.

First of all you are a virgin nerd. And Twilight has absolutely nothing below the surface. You see one twilight movie and you know everything. It is simple and for dumbasses like you. Twilight is for boobless, hormone-crazed, pre-pubescent girls. Like you.


14. Hermione is a week character. Unline Bella, who struggles every day. Hermione has no problems, the only things she has are self-created. She follows Harry into his troubles. Big whoop. Even if she is teased about being a mud blood or whatever its called, she has a choice. She could quit Hogwarts or something. Bella has no choice, she is in love.

OK, you quit school. Like right now. No big whoop right. Bella has so many choices and yet she is incapable to function without her sparkling boyfriend. She threw herself off a cliff when he left. Just so she could get his attention and so he would come back. That is so unrealistic. What would happen in real life is she would be checked into mental hospital for mental instability and severe dependence issues.


15. Twilight was a best selling novel, and has a bigger fan base than Harry Potter.

link

Actually, Harry Potter's least popular movie made more money than the Twilight Books all together.

16. Stephenie Meyer writes that the only thing that can kill a vampire is another vampire or a werewolf. Since Edward is a vampire created by Meyer, we can use her written characteristics and apply them to Harry Potter. Since Harry Potter is neither vampire nor wolf, this means that Harry Potter could not kill Edward and Edward would win.

Vampires don't exist. Neither do wizards. But why would it matter if they fought. Even if Harry died he would have accomplished something in his life. It would have been a life worth living.

17. Twilight led to many other supernatural romances in books and tv shows.

It started a trend. Because of you retard fan-girls. Anyway, have you heard of Anne Rice or Bram Stoker. Stephanie Meyer didn't invent Vampires.

18. Unlike Harry, nobody's thoughts are actually that deep or intellectual. I bet if any of us published our thoughts into a book, none would be great English lit; Bella's thoughts are more realistic.

Actually, people's thoughts are like Harry's. And compared to most people he wouldn't be considered that smart. Which makes you seem really stupid if you think Harry Potter is complicated.

19. at least all of them dosent a scar of a lightning bolt.

Good one. That is a great reason. Seriously.

20. no witchcraft (practicing witchcraft is bad).

According to the TUDORS. Catch up with REALITY.


21. At least they talk about reliegon even 4 a short while.

And? Seriously? That was a low blow. Bringing up religion isn't very appropriate.

22. Twilight goes more in depth with the emotions. You can feel Bella's pain when Edward leaves her. You can feel her confusion between Edward and Jacob. You can feel her love for Renesmee.

ARE YOU SERIOUS? Twilight has ZERO character development, empathy or common sense to actions. What I mean is that it just says OMG I LOVE HIM but doesn't show it or make the watcher or reader fall in love with him to.
The acting is also wooden and just plain bad.


23. Twilight is a modern-day Romeo and Juliet in its themes of everlasting but forbidden love; to be compared to such a classic is an honor.

It has never been compared to that masterpiece. And HOW are they alike? People fall in love?!?!?! Yeah, that happens in just about every movie ever. Nothing else is the same. FORBIDDEN LOVE? That also is in just about every love story ever.

24. We like the time setting of Twilight. It is modern day.

SO IS HARRY POTTER YOU ALREADY SAID THAT.

25. Vampires stay with their partners will death. If you mess with their partners, you'll get what's coming. Even after their partner is dead, they will remain loyal to them, till their time comes.

Real people move on, experiment and change. Just like in Harry Potter. Twilight is so unrealistic.

26. We like and appreciate the fact that the vampires and werewolves in Twilight aren't anything like the one's from us before. To us, it's nice to take on the vampire and werewolf concept.

J.K. Rowling was so original she made up new creatures instead of using old ones. Vampires and werewolves have been used so many times before and everyone is tired of it.

27. You can read Twilight over and over again.

Not if you want to keep your food inside your stomach.

28. It is the rare vampire novel that isn't about sex on some level, and the Twilight books are no exception. What makes Meyer's books so distinctive is that they're about the erotics of abstinence. Their tension comes from prolonged, superhuman acts of self-restraint. There's a scene midway through Twilight, in which, for the first time, Edward leans in close and sniffs the aroma of Bella's exposed neck. "Just because I'm resisting the wine doesn't mean I can't appreciate the bouquet," he says. "You have a very floral smell, like lavender....or freesia." He barely touches her, but there's more sex in that one paragraph than in all the snogging in Harry Potter.

Again, that is pointless. Good luck finding anyone ever like that. BUT this is one of the more reasonable reasons which has evidence and support. But sex isn't something needed in a love story.

29. The characters change throughout the Twilight series as well. they may not be growing up like the Harry Potter Characters did, but they did change. The characters become more brave, stronger, loving, forgiving, etc. Each character changed in the Twilight books. Harry Potter characters changed as well, but they kept some of their bad traits with them.

Of course they did. They were still the same people. In twilight I have never once seen how they have changed. But Harry Potter is realistic and empathetic because people do keep their bad traits and aren't perfect, just like you and me.

30. IT has a graphic novel.

It has a comic book? Comic books are for children, and yet the books are about sex. Strange.


31. has more female fans.

you mean hormone-crazed, ten year olds and sex-crazed, lonely mothers?


32. Harry Potter was mainly focused on children. We are into the more mature books. That have mature elements in them.

You think that mature elements are sex and love. That's it. That's all you know about maturity. Harry Potter has multiple layers of friendships and connections and reflection and strength. Those topics are way more mature than the ones in twilight because they are the characteristics of a strong, independent, mature adult. Its a typical teenager thing to say that sex and love are maturity because teenagers believe that they are adults, but they still have the minds of children.

33. Who wouldn't want two guys fighting over you? :D That just makes a good story. Am I right?

Not really. I don't think you even understand what you are saying, because toying with boys feelings is a horrible thing to do. And it also makes a bad story. Which Twilight has proven.

34. Bella Swan is a strong character. SHe is brave, caring, forgiving, accepting, and just plain awesome :) She has risked her life many times to save someone she loves, such as Charlie, Renee, Edward, Jacob, The Cullens, Nessie, etc. She went through weeks of pain to save her daughter. SHe was willing to die so her baby could live. She has also formed a huge army and was prepared to fight till the death to protect her child and family. So yes, Bella is a role model. And No, she is not dependent on Edward.

wrong. there are no examples of Bella having any of those characteristics. She risked her life for attention, not for others. She didn't form an army, people did it for her because they cared about her. I don't know why. She is very dependent on Edward.

35. Twilight totally had a better, richer, more complex plot line than Harry Potter.

wrong again. Harry Potter has MULTIPLE themes such as: The Value of Humility, The Occasional Necessity of Rebellion, The Dangers of Desire, Authority, The Importance of Friendship, Trust, Self-Reflection, Strength and Choosing to do the right thing. I could say more.

36. Alice Cullen. She is just awesome! She would probably be considered as the "Luna" in Twilight. Am I right? Alice would be the perfect sister. She would make anyone smile if they had a bad day.

We have Luna. AND Hermione.

37. All four Twilight books made us teary eyed. As for Harry Potter, some parts made us sad and a little teary, but Twilight was the one that really made us teary.

Wrong again. Twilight made people laugh. At the stupidity of it. Harry Potter made us cry, laugh, get angry, feel sympathy and most importantly feel empathy.

38. The Twilight books were so amazing!! We just could not put them down at all! For Harry Potter, some of the books we could not put down, but others made us a bit sleepy.

39. Daniel Radcliffe is doing pornografic musicals on Broadway and Robert Pattinson is singing and acting in other movies...who exactly got the better end of the deal?

wrong again. all of robert's movies after twilight have flopped and been poorly rated. Daniel is in highly rated and anticipated movies, that are just as provocative as twilight. He is just exploring his acting abilities.

40. Sirius Black can turn into a great, black dog, Peter Pettigrew can turn into a rat, James Potter can turn into a stag, Remus Lupin a werewolf Rita Skeeter can turn into a beetle and Minerva Mcgonagall can turn into a cat. How scary is that?? Not at all. A Twilight shapeshifter would OWN them all :)

They aren't supposed to be scary you dumbass. They have better things to do with being shapeshifters.

41. The HP books are all depressing. Lots of good characters die, which isn't cool. And they're just full of violance, and ridiculous plans.

Twilight is full of violence. Good people die in real life. ITS REALISTIC FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME. unlike twilight.

42. Stephenie Meyer did her resarch and found a place like Forks so the vampires could be outside. JK just made one up.

Stephanie Meyer didn't use any originality or creativity. Unlike J.K. Rowling.

43. The sparkles are so unique and creative. They're not stupid.

Yes, they are stupid.

44. harry potter is too hard for a young child to read.

I managed and so did the rest of the world. I read it when I was 9. YOU ARE JUST STUPID.

45. Twilight is better because the books are written better and the characters bring more to the table for the readers.

Apparently Harry Potter is too hard for you so what would you know about good writing.

46. It's set in America.

America is essentially England. Because you are all just English immigrants. Unless you are native american. But we still created the english language and that is why it is called ENGLISH.


AND OF COURSE...................






Thank you for your time.


LEARN HOW TO SPELL. READ A BOOK MAYBE. GROW UP AND GET REAL.

Read more at ONTD: link

44 made me laugh so hard and face palm as well. Cause a young child will understand Twilight MUCH better than Harry Potted -.-

Various reasons.
I don't like having "reasons" demanded from me.

I just wanted to verify a few things. First of all, I don't believe that I "demanded" anything from everyone. In fact, I used a rather tentative approach as to not offend anyone. I didn't force you to read/post on this forum. As you bothered to respond at all, I would be glad if you would actually say why you are a fan of Twilight, please.

^^She didnt demand anything...

Not a Twi fan so i cant help you there! But I agree, very few valid points out there!

Yeah there arent very many valid arguments, most of the "twilight is better than harry potter" arguments Ive seen on the net are usually really superficial, (the characters are not as hot ect) and sometimes laughably stupid (JK Rowling stole the name 'Black' from twilight)

It doesn't matter if the reasons are "demanded" or "requested". I'm not going to provide for you any list of "reasons". I don't have to explain myself. If anyone actually wants to know why, that person is going to have to have an actual conversation with me to find out.

Really, I'm tired of having to defend the entire fandom because of troll articles people find online. If you want to know why a Twilight fan likes Twilight, have a conversation with them. We don't have cooties or a contagious "stupid" virus. You'll be safe, don't worry.

I personally feel it's insulting to be asked for my "valid reasons" for liking something.
Why do people ask this so often? I never get asked for my "valid reasons" for liking the color blue or for my favorite television show or my "valid reasons" for liking spaghetti, only to have people tell me "well pizza has sauce on it too, you're such a hypocrite for not liking pizza as much as you like spaghetti"

Actually, when you use the word "demand," it implies a more forceful or aggressive tone than simply "requesting." But, like you said, it doesn't really matter, as we're not going to debate over use of English. And did I say "list"? I don't remember doing so. I understand, liking something isn't cut and dry like simply writing a list. Nobody said you had to explain yourself. When you deemed yourself a Twilight fan and posted here, I assumed you wanted to share why you liked Twilight. How silly of me. Though, not to be rude, I didn't say specifically that YOU had to explain your reasons. After all, this is just for fun. We COULD have a conversation instead of this. But it doesn't seem like we're going to.

Well, I'm sorry for any trolls out there who are imposing a stereotype, but I specifically said I only despised the Twi-hards, not Twilighters. They're both Twilight fans. One type is obsessive and shallow, with Twilight only being a trend, and the other is normal. They just like Twilight. I HAVE seen both types, especially the first, in the movie theaters. Well, with most Twilight fans I found online (they're either trolls or too young to reason with) they can't hold up a conversation, say, with real reasons. Tell me when I'm stereotyping. I haven't had any Twilight fans at my school that I know of. So, as this is the HP vs Twilight DEBATE spot, I thought I could find and ask a Twilighter here, if you don't mind. Don't worry, I'm quite capable of being mature.

Exactly. Not YOUR valid reasons specifically. I meant to ask for reasons that are not biased or opinion-based. And I assume that you do like something for a reason. Say, I hate pink because it's so girly, and it reminds me of how girls are stereotyped. I meant sure to specify "valid reasons" in case a troll or someone like that tried to post here. As for your last question, well, this IS the Harry Potter vs Twilight debate spot, isn't it? Or am I mistaken? And the fact is, Twilight and Harry Potter are some of the biggest franchises to hit this generation, so that's why people compare.

I like Twilight because the story kept me interested enough to read all four books, even though BD got a bit boring for me at the end half. The characters were interesting, too, but not so much Bella and Edward; the other Cullens and the wolves.

And when I was reading the series, I didn't read it for the intent to compare it to HP. I think that's why I enjoyed it more than an HP fan who goes into reading the series with the intent of comparing the two or to find flaws. I wanted to read Twilight because I wanted to see why everyone liked it so much and went into it with an open-mind. If I read it because I thought it would be horrible compared to HP, of course I would end up thinking the same thing after I was done, but since I read it as a completely different series for the sake of enjoyment, that's what I ended up doing: liking and being entertained by the series.

. I meant to ask for reasons that are not biased or opinion-based.

This... I don't think it's even possible. If you're not willing to accept anything based on opinion, you'll never be satisfied.
I'm pretty sure you can't even give one "valid reason" for liking Harry Potter that is not based on an opinion.

As for your last question, well, this IS the Harry Potter vs Twilight debate spot, isn't it? Or am I mistaken? And the fact is, Twilight and Harry Potter are some of the biggest franchises to hit this generation, so that's why people compare.

What question are you even talking about? I didn't ask why people compare the two stories. I hate that question.

To @cassie-1-2-3: Let me rephrase again-I don't mean as in just statements like, "I like Harry Potter." I mean reasons that can be disproved or be seen in other ways, as in: "The plot is boring." I would like more explanation on that. Your question was "Why do people ask this so often?" and my response was how I interpreted that. I suppose my other responses to your interjections are satisfying?

@VampiresRevenge: Thank you for giving a straightforward answer. I would reply to you and tell you all what I thought of Twilight (it wasn't all bad), but I'll have to do it tomorrow--I don't process Fanpop very well on mobile.

Again, I can't give you factual reasons that you can disprove, I don't even want to. That's not the way I do things at all. All you want is for people to give your "valid reasons" so you can either disprove them or say how you see it differently, right? That's what you're implying now.
I'm tired of that and I refuse to participate in it.

And again, I didn't ask why people compare Harry Potter and Twilight. So why give "...so that's why people compare" as a response?
My actual question is why should I have to validate my preferences in literature for anyone, when I'm not so constantly asked to validate my preference toward colors or food, or anything else? I find it ridiculous and it's getting old.
I will admit that I'm being stubborn and withholding informations I could easily share with you and everyone else, but I'm doing it on principle.

Well, like I said, this IS the debate spot after all, which would be the main reason why this question is being asked about Twilight. So that would be why I'm doing this: to tell you how I see it, and we can differentiate, right? However, I'd like to ask what principles you're acting on.

I have my opinions and you have yours; we both stand by what we already said. This is getting to be repetitive. This forum is not for the debate we're having now. So, with that, I don't think we need to argue further. I hope this doesn't make us enemies or anything of the sort. I actually am very impressed with how you are very fair to both Harry Potter and Twilight fans, even if they're not showing you the same respect. That's something I'm not sure I can do. I've also read a few of the responses you've presented to other forums. So, thank you, maybe we can be somewhat friends. :)

This is a copy of a comment I made in another forum on this spot. I can't be bothered typing an original answer to a question that keeps getting asked all the time:

There are a few things I prefer in Twilight over Harry Potter. I like the characters in Twilight better. I don't find most of the character in Harry Potter to be likeable people. Even my favourite (Snape) is my favourite partly because he's a nasty person, but then he's supposed to not be nice. Haggrid, Dumbledore, Ron, Luppin, Sirius, the Twins, James, Mcgonagal, Mad eye, Molly, Finnigan, etc are however supposed to be the nicer, likeable characters, yet I've found that upon closer inspection, I don't particularly like them much. I did like some of them initially, but every time I reread the series, I find them less and less likeable.

I like the lust in Twilight. I like how obsessed both Bella and Edward are over each other. It's part of what makes their story compelling to me. That's something that I find lacking in HP romances, it's why I find their pairings to be mostly clumsy and unbelievable. A romantic relationship needs to have lust and desire in it, otherwise it just feels like either a platonic friedship or familial association. The romance in Twilight is sizzling because of the lust and the obsession.

I know this has been mentioned many times before, but I can relate to Bella a lot more than to any other character in HP. For starters, for most of the series, she's human. She has real flaws, and behaves in a typical teenage way ie acting as if the world revolves around her, has low self image that does not match the reality, is awkward, blows things out of proportion, makes reckless decisions, comes out loosing and/or needs rescuing in any fight against supernatural/stronger beings. She's a normal girl who finds herself  having to deal with the supernatural world. HP characters are all special. They can all do magic, go to school in a magical castle, wear robes, interact with magical and mystical creatures, live in a society with different rules, beliefs and reality, take different subjects, etc. They are magical beings living in a magical world. If they're Muggles then they're just mentioned briefly (Hermione's parents), are unlikeable people (Dursleys) or victims. The children, specially the trio, solve everything just about on their own, and are so competent that the adults basically leave the war in their hands. They are well balanced individuals who cope extremely well with tragic and traumatic experiences and deal well when under pressure. They can fight trolls, escape three headed giant dogs unscathed (unlike much more powerful adult wizards ie Snape,) fight off and escape from a horde of fast giant spiders, fight and slay a gigantic and magical basilisk, a bunch of dementors, the fiercest dragon, break through security measures designed to keep Voldemort away and placed by highly skilled wizards, etc, etc, and all on their own while the adults and more powerful wizards run around being ineffectual, ignorant, incompetent and/or malicious.  And if they get hurt then they just need to take a potion and/or wave a wand and everything is fine. All of which is ok for a kids book, but not so much for a young adult's. Which is why I don't take the messages in HP too seriously. The situations feel too contrived and not realistic enough for life lessons for young adults to be drawn from it.  

I have to add also that liking Twilight because of the hot guys is a perfectly valid reason. If having a hot character in a story is a prerequisite for someone to enjoy reading it then that reason is more than acceptable.

^ Why can't more Twilight fans give well thought out reasons like cunha17 did? They are right in saying that having hot guys is a valid reason for liking something, though listing that alone says a lot about the person who gives that reason. On the flip side, it isn't a valid reason for why one series is better then another.

"It has a comic book? Comic books are for children, and yet the books are about sex. Strange. "

*sigh* The idea that graphic novels are for children is a major misconception. I know quite a few that I would give to children and these have been around for years and some have been released by Marvel and DC. This is like saying cartoons are for kids when there are quite a few you shouldn't show to little kids. And I am not just talking about Anime here. While that may be a reason for liking Twilight, the fact it actually has a graphic novel, by graphic novel standards it is not very good. A lot of the people in the graphic novel community felt the artists talent was wasted and not because of the actual story. The type setting is horrible and breaks a lot of no-nos any graphic novel artist knows not to go into.

...

Anyways, I'm not sure you can call me a fan of Twilight as I'm one of those who think of it as my candy read, but here are some reasons people like the series.

1. There are characters I happen to like.
2. Waiting until after marriage to have sex is a big deal.
3. Bella's character has an interesting personality, though she isn't someone I would want to be friends with and I wouldn't have gone the direction Meyer did with a character with her personality.
4. There are some interesting issues that crop up in the series despite the fact Meyer did not intend them to be there and some of the fans don't see them.