thảo luận WHY is homosexuality a sin?

Cinders posted on Oct 11, 2007 at 04:26AM
In a simply exploratory capacity, I ask those of you who are against homosexuality for religious/moral reasons to explain why it is a sin.

For the record, you are not required to quote the Bible, unless the Biblical quote explains why, and isn't simply decreeing that it is a sin.

The Bible, Leviticus especially, supports plenty of things and is against still more things. For example, Leviticus supports slavery, corporal punishment, and animal sacrifices, while it is against the touching of dead insects.

So it is clear that some of these "sins" and means of worship have fallen out of practice with modern day Christians, the reason being one can't really find much logic behind these sins, and indeed some of these "morally just" behaviors have also been deemed cruel and inhumane.

Some sins and commandments ("Thou shalt not judge," murder, theft, etc.) are self-explanatory. If one asks me to explain why those are sins, I gladly would.

So I would like to hear a well-constructed argument on why homosexuality is immoral. This is out of simple curiosity because I haven't yet found an argument that I cannot refute.

IF you can give me a non-religion specific reason for why it is wrong, ie a UNIVERSAL reason for why it is wrong, you get extra brownie points.

Anyone up to the challenge? I think the last person who held his own on this topic was dodgeball_beast. Still, we agreed to disagree. Someone persuade me.

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hơn một năm qua DrDevience said…
I'll go pop some corn. Butter anyone?
hơn một năm qua Cinders said…
Haha, yes, I do expect this to be a riveting spectacle. This is a question I've asked for years.

I would love butter. It has zero calories when it's online ;o) ;o)
hơn một năm qua dodgeball_beast said…
Seems to me like your mind is set and nothing's going to 'persuade' you. There's no problems with that, I just think that it's obvious, so people probably won't even bother trying.
hơn một năm qua Cinders said…
What do you have to lose by trying? You did a pretty good job. Got my respect, didn't it?
hơn một năm qua DrDevience said…
As far as I have been able to tell, Cinders has one the most open minds I have ever seen... I think it is more a case of nobody having any valid response yet.
hơn một năm qua Zerstoren said…
"Right" and "Wrong" are not set in stone; it is determiend by society. If an outstanding majority of society says something is wrong then it is. Then usually they persecute the minority which do not believe that, and engage in "wrong" acts.
This is an effort to correct this 'wrong' thinking so society functions more smoothly and effeciently.

So you could say if homosexuality was disruptive enough to the majority of society, it would be considered wrong.
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hơn một năm qua DrDevience said…
Big 'if' there, Zer. It is not disruptive at all in and of itself. It is those wanting to deem it evil that are making it so.

Creating an issue where there shouldn't be one, so to speak. If left alone with full rights, I do not see where there would be any disruption to society at all.
hơn một năm qua Zerstoren said…
I don't personally feel that it is wrong, but many countries, cultures and religions do feel that way.
To those people, it is disruptive, whether they have good reasons for feeling that way is irrelevant if the majority of the people agree.
Hopefully their ignorance does not last though :)
hơn một năm qua nonames said…
Actually Zerstoren is right. Im taking on law class this quarter. Even though i agree with gay-marriage and the like, the ways laws are made create this notion of "wrong" vs "right", and legal vs illegal. Here's a helpful excerpt from my textbook:

" Laws are the rules governing our behavior. They are the practical means we use to provide an interface between what individuals want to do (derived from economic and personal motives) and what society as a whole wants individuals to do (derived from cultural norms). At first violating a norm is just considered odd behavior. Over time violation becomes increasingly unacceptable, at some point crossing the line into the immoral or unethical, and eventually is made illegal."

So theroretically, if enough people believe homosexuality is wrong, i can become illegal. I highly doubt that it will ever enter that stage, because more and more people are becoming open to the idea, even if they are morally against it. I'm just stating that due to our laws, it is possible to be considered universally (for the US anyways) wrong, ie illegal....not that id ever want that to happen..

just playing devils advocate...
hơn một năm qua raebo said…
umm, well, God made adam and eve, not adam and steve. if you get what i mean. even though i'm religious, i'm pretty liberal and i have nothing against gays, lesbians and bis. it's your own state of mind, i believe.
hơn một năm qua dodgeball_beast said…
Ooh, careful what you say raebo. You'll get eaten alive.
hơn một năm qua nonames said…
that is the WORST argument ive ever heard
hơn một năm qua DrDevience said…
If by 'eaten alive' you mean someone will jump on that falacy, then you are probably correct ;)

nonames, I am a retired Criminologist and Shrink. I understand very well how and why laws get made, and it is not always 'majority rules.' Quite more often it is 'money talks.'

Many active laws in the US are so anti-freedom it boggles the mind to even contemplate them. this whole Gay Marriage and Gay Adoption quagmire are prime examples.

hơn một năm qua DrDevience said…
Raebo... support your thesis. the blanket jab of 'Adam & Eve' doesn't wash.... especially since biblical scholars agree that they were not even close to the first people.
hơn một năm qua raebo said…
okay, what i said was meant as a JOKE (if you thought i was being serious and want to take a jab at it, it's fine with me). but i did find articles on why homosexuality is a sin and why homosexuality is not a sin - both by religioius people.

first article: link
second article: link

as you can see, even religious people have different views on homosexuality.

we're all born of a certain sex - male/female. it's who we are anatomically. but as we grow up and face what society has for us and what influences us, we choose our own gender. gender basically is our sexual orientation.

so the question is whether or not gender is given by God or is chosen by ourselves. since God made it such that man and woman are to be together, our sex should be the same as our gender. if our gender is God's and we choose to be the opposite, then that would mean that we're sinning. but if gender is chosen by us, then how can we sin against ourselves? also, if God knows all and He planned out our lives from the very beginning, how can He be against homosexuality if he planned out so many lives to be gay?

homosexuality is seen as a sin because i believe there isn't enough talk about it. it's still taboo. we grow up seeing things a certain way - this plus this equals this. it's "abnormal" to be with someone of the same sex. society deems it as wrong.

also, universally speaking, men and women are supposed to be together for the sake of reproduction and to re-populate the world. you might say that in some parts of the world, there's overpopulation and it wouldn't hurt to have a couple of gays there (once again, JOKE). you could even say that gay couples could choose to adopt but the only way to get a child is for a man and woman to mate. therefore, in this sense, homosexuality is a "sin" because it does not help to re-populate the earth. and maybe you'll be surprised to know that there are some countries that are underpopulated (eg., singapore).

is homoexuality a sin? yes and no. yes because of the above reason and because of the evidence given in the first article. and no, because i believe that we cannot change our state of mind. if you've never liked brussell sprouts in the first place, eating crates of it is not going to change your mind about it. so if you're gay and you force yourself to not be gay, it cannot be helped because it has already been set in your mind that you are gay.

i think it just boils down to what you believe is right.

*apologies if this seems a little messy. rebuttals would be great but rude remarks will not be appreciated. thanks.
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hơn một năm qua Cinders said…
I'm in class but I am very fascinated by where this argument is going so I will respond later. (Yes, I'm slacking off in class, so sue me).

PS: Doctor D, thanks! I really appreciate that comment, because I try to listen to things as open-mindedly as possible.
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hơn một năm qua Cinders said…
OK-- raebo-- Lol at the Adam and Steve joke, but you have to understand that I've actually heard that as a serious argument before, which is probably why it wasn't recognized as a joke.

FIRST of all, I wanted to say those are some very interesting articles, thank you for sharing them. Now let's discuss them before I go onto what you said. I agree that just because you're religious it doesn't mean you have to regard homosexuality as a sin. The Bible is probably the singular book with the most interpretations I have ever seen, more so than JD Salinger, for instance. I like both of these articles for the different arguments they represent. The first one brings up Sodom and Gomorrah (which 65% of high school seniors believe to be a married couple-- Stephen Colbert, March 2007). I like that, because it's a fresh argument (as far as these debate forums are concerned, I have heard this argument outside of Fanpop). What people on these forums are prone to do is quote Leviticus, which, as I have shown, if you read ALL of Leviticus, you see that plenty of the practices it encourages are not exactly considered moral today. So when people quote from Leviticus, I feel like they are cherry-picking ideas that they like and ignoring everything else that they don't within that book.

Now, about Sodom and Gomorrah-- I always pictured them as a sort of old-time Las Vegas. Sin City, quite literally. Homosexuality is a big one for this, but (and you realize this) it's homosexuality in a lustful sense, which is how the Bible actually tends to characterize it a lot.

Now, as we are all aware, lust of any kind is considered sinful, and that is an argument all on its own that I won't go into. For the sake of this argument, let's just accept at face value that lust is a sin and not argue with that. However, what plenty of Christians don't seem to understand, is that a homosexual relationship, quite like a heterosexual relationship, is equally prone to flaws as it is to strengths. A heterosexual person can be just as lustful as a homosexual person, and the Bible scorns heterosexual lust as well. Now, Sodom was punished because it was rank with sin, famously homosexual lust.

I have one question, though. Why did Lot offer his daughters to the men, as if allowing them to ravage/rape two virgin women was better than homosexual behavior? Yeah, I know they were angels, and angels are better than daughters, but that's not the point. I have issue with this part of the chapter.

Anyways, the article was still insightful, filled with plenty of religious support (which is fine in this argument!) telling me that the Bible clearly believes homosexuality to be a sin. Thankfully, not all of it was from Leviticus. Unfortunately, it still has not explained WHY it is a sin. Still, a good read nonetheless. The only thing I have issue with in the whole article is the idea that you can somehow stop being a homosexual. As if you can stop being short, or stop being dark-skinned, or stop being male (well, with modern science, technically you CAN change your gender, but that's not the point). I've always argued that homosexuality is who you are, not how you behave, that's why they call it "being a homosexual." The reason I have issue with this in THIS article is because the author is using implications, and I quote: "That implies that some Christians in the church of Corinth were previously homosexual. Then God saved them and freed them from their enslaving sin. He can do the same for you!"

Be wary of the word "implies." Words imply a lot of things. Direct quotes from the Bible is one thing, but implications are another.

As for your second article, I think my favorite line was from the Lutheran Bishop Olson: "God could not care less about humanly devised categories that label and demean those who do not somehow fit into the norm of those in control."

And now, for your own words. How ominous does that sound? But you make an interesting argument, and I respect that. First point is with your vocabulary: You use gender as a synonym for sexual orientation, and I understand that in this context, but gender IS your sex. Believe me, I just looked it up in the dictionary to make sure I haven't been using it wrong all my life. Still, I understand what you're saying, so I'll go with it.

Personally, I don't feel we choose our sexual orientation any more than we choose what our nose looks like or how many freckles we have. I'm not saying it's necessarily genetic, but think of it more like a personality. You are who you are. Whether you are responsible for that or God is, I can't say, but you can't choose it. That whole paragraph of whether God chose you to be homosexual or you chose it was a little confusing, but after I read it through a few times I think I understand. You're just stating the dilemma of choice: are we choosing to go against God, or did God choose us to be this way. Am I right? Regardless, seeing as I don't see homosexuality as a choice, I find this point to be moot. However, for those who DO see it as a choice, argue away on that point, but I won't touch it.

You're sitting on the fence-- which is fine! It's great to have a few moderates here and there, particularly to moderate a heated debate. I like your analogy with brussell sprouts. :o) But since you're on the fence, I can only really argue with the points you make that I disagree with.

Point one: Homosexuality is a sin because it's considered "abnormal" and deemed wrong by society.

Other people have mentioned this too (society decides what's right and wrong based on social norms). However, I've always stated that just because something is different doesn't mean it's wrong. Is it a sin to be transgender? That's definitely different. Would we begrudge that person for something they cannot change? In my opinion, this is a flaw in society, not in homosexuality. "Everybody's journey is individual. If you fall in love with a boy, you fall in love with a boy. The fact that most of America considers it a disease says more about them than it does about homosexuality." James Baldwin, American writer and philosopher. The point is, when society decides that something is wrong because it is abnormal, it is acting on instinct rather than intellect. We fear the different because biologically, different means danger. Survival of the fittest dictates that life is a competition, and anything different from us threatens us. It's the source of racism and homophobia. However, intellect overrules instinct. We know that just because you're a little different it doesn't necessarily threaten our way of life. Or, at least, we should know that.

Point Two: Homosexuality is a sin because it doesn't aid in populating the earth.

I apologize for the classic rebuttal to this question, but what does that mean for infertile couples? Are they not allowed to fall in love and/or have sex simply because they cannot reproduce? You brought up the point of overpopulation already, balancing out this argument with a preemptive retort. Good on you, that shows you're thinking critically. The best way to debate is to anticipate your opponent's response. It's how I won the Forensics Tournament in 12th grade. :o) About underpopulated countries: there are better ways to fix that then just making Singaporeans have more children. One word: Immigration.

Er... I think that's all for now. I recognize this is a long response. Hope it was helpful.
hơn một năm qua DrDevience said…
Cinders tackled this pretty good, though I have slightly different interpretations of a few things. Overall we are in agreement.

I will say that in Sweden, the church was/is one of the biggest proponents of Gay Marriage. Many, man high church officials argued for it to be equal for all... and offered church services to Gay couples getting a civil union.
hơn một năm qua DrDevience said…
From a link Cinders added to this spot:

"Ezekiel 16:49, which claims the sins of Sodom were pride, gluttony, sloth, greed, and failure to help the poor." - nothing to do with homosexuality.
hơn một năm qua Cinders said…
It's a well-known fact that God loved David, made him king, and all that.

And yet, the relationship between David and Jonathan is quite interesting.

"The soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul ... And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments ... and his girdle." 1 Samuel 18:1-4

"I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." 2 Samuel 1:26

And one could still argue that this is a homosocial relationship, a platonic love affair between men, intimate, but not homosexual. Well, then, why does Saul get so upset with Jonathan?

"Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness?" 1 Samuel 20:30

I underlined the word "confusion" because that seems to be what a lot of Christians believe homosexuals to be. Confused.

However, there are few people in the Bible that God loved more than David.

A good Christian may argue that God "forgave" David for this sin. And yet, there is no specific point in which it is implied that there is anything wrong about David and Jonathan's relationship. No angel came down unto David and said that what he was doing was wrong, like they did in the case of Sodom. If anyone seems to be the morally reprehensible here, it's Saul, not David.

Also, just to quote Ezekiel 16:49 directly:

"Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy."
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hơn một năm qua MajorDork74 said…
Back for a little bit since I've gotten to relax a bit. Well, as much as Cinders protests against the religious aspects, I have to put these in for reading & reference:

ROMANS 1: 24-29
JUDE 1: 7

NOTE: Leviticus is not listed here!
hơn một năm qua MajorDork74 said…
Oh, and I did read something that describes how people act in today's societies everywhere. Just noteworthy in my opinion.

"We will not listen to your false 'Messages from God'! We will do whatever we want to. We will burn incense to the 'Queen of Heaven' and sacrifice to her just as much as we like -- just as we and our fathers before us, and our kings and princes have always done in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; for in those days we had plenty to eat and we were well off and happy!"
hơn một năm qua Cinders said…
Actually, you're allowed to use religious arguments for WHY it is a sin in here.

The best answer I can get out of that is lust.
hơn một năm qua MajorDork74 said…
Lusting of your own kind. Lust covers everything.
hơn một năm qua Cinders said…
But I've already responded to the lust argument.
hơn một năm qua MajorDork74 said…
"The soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul ... And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments ... and his girdle." 1 Samuel 18:1-4

"I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." 2 Samuel 1:26

These verses are nothing like sexual lust as such. It is the Godly bond of brotherly love, a love only God can bestow and cannot be corrupted or perverted by Satan.
"After King Saul had finished his conversation with David, David met Jonathan, the king's son, and there was an immediate bond of love between them. Jonathan swore to be his blood brother, and sealed the pact by giving him his robe, sword, bow, and belt."
hơn một năm qua Cinders said…
I agree it is a bond of love, but what kind of love is debatable.

The Bible describes homosexual lust as a sin, as it describes heterosexual lust as a sin, but celebrates love, of any kind.
hơn một năm qua lsmlandin said…
I asked my mom this question because she is really into religion, and she said that being gay is not a sin because god created everything. The sin is the fact that they have sex without getting married within the church.
And since socially no priest will marry a couple of guys or girls, they will be sinning just for having sex outside of marriage. but see who cares because many straight couples have sex outside marriage.
hơn một năm qua MajorDork74 said…
“Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.”- ROMANS 12:2

"Hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us." - ROMANS 5:5
hơn một năm qua MajorDork74 said…
I have seen that ½ of Biblical Scholars don't even agree with each other, since most don't pay attention to foot notes already presented in some Bibles. So, the Biblical Scholars thing I don't even regard so much anymore.
If we look at the Greek story "300", we can see, if you read through the book of Daniel, history and the Bible so coincide that it's almost scary.
NONE of us were around in the time of Adam & Eve, not even our most prized 'Bible Scholars.' We can 'argue' this homosexual debate until we're all blue in the face, but it seems spiritual forces from both sides have influenced some people way too much for them to want to let go. It seems fruitless to continue this, regardless of how much some love to debate.
hơn một năm qua MajorDork74 said…
Satan/Lucifer certainly knows how to pervert Love and turn it around to be his tool. It's one of his favorite tools, about equal to Despair. And since all humans are frail on 99% of all levels, and Satan being an expert on human nature, shouldn't it be obvious that homosexuality is born of Satan's toolbox? It is to me, and it's why I don't agree with the lifestyle.
Satan has pretty much the same powers as God, except he cannot create life, he can only do illusions, make things LOOK real but they aren't. Shouldn't that tell you something about this? I know I do not need to get into the story of how Satan came to be, 90% of people already know the story, I'm sure.
hơn một năm qua Cinders said…
OK, all three of your posts confuse me, let me tackle them one by one.

First post: Quotes from Romans-- How, exactly, does that answer the question of WHY homosexuality is a sin?

Second Post: Bible scholars... Well, they study the Bible. And they believe in it. And yet, each one has a different interpretation of it. I can tell you right now that I'll bet you dollars to donuts that no one interprets the Bible in EXACTLY the same way that you do. It's not just scholars, it's everyone who disagree. But scholars do know the material inside and out, whether they all agree or not. Don't be so quick to dismiss them, lest someone be as quick to dismiss your ideas too.

You still haven't given me a "WHY"

Third Post: This post is based entirely on assumptions of a life you know nothing about. And in that sense, if you continue to believe that homosexuals cannot fall in love, then you're right, we are at a standstill. Because no matter WHAT I may tell you, or any gay couple may tell you, you will always be convinced that their love is perverted by Satan. I'm sorry, I try to respect different beliefs, but I simply cannot respect this because it is based on ignorance. Who are you to tell them how they feel? Where in the Bible does it say homosexual LOVE (not LUST) is borne of Satan? Now I'm not saying it doesn't-- even if you find some quote somewhere that says verbatim that "homosexual 'love' is simply lust perverted by the devil to look like love" I still will disagree with it. Because I have known very loving, caring, and GIVING gay couples. I have known abusive, selfish, and angry straight couples who use their love to hurt each other.

Using your reasoning, one could argue that Satan is actually misguiding YOU because he's teaching you to see love as a sin.

Who are you to decide what Satan's illusions are? If he's so clever, are you really so arrogant to assume that you can see through all of his well-constructed tricks?

I'm sorry I took off the gloves in response to this, but the argument of "homosexuals aren't really in love" really gets to me because it comes off as arrogant, ignorant, and condescending, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF TO SUPPORT IT other than... well, ignorance, arrogance, and patronizing logic.
hơn một năm qua DrDevience said…
I see no need to apologize at all, Cinders.
hơn một năm qua MajorDork74 said…
I have had my fair share of combat with Satan's side & believe me I stay as far away from it as I possibly can. I've got some 'scars' that my family & friends can see from my events and explanations, Cinders!
Let's just say I've done plenty of praying over the last year & just because I have no tangible proof of what you're throwing at me labels me a liar or misguided, and ignorant of such things, does not mean I do not know what I am talking about. God reveals what He feels I need to know. And I know that much of it.
If you think I am coming off as ignorant and condescending, think & look again, Cinders my dear! I say these things because I care about people & pray they'll see the truth behind what they're living in! I've been told everything by atheists, agnostics, and solypsists alike!
"Oh we don't need to believe in God."
"I can think for myself!"
"If God existed, than why is our world the way it is?!"
People have gone away from God & wandered. Evil has been given its label for the explanation of 'lack of God.'
Just like 'darkness' was named for 'abscence of light.'
'Cold'.....'absence of heat.'
Satan gave the world evil in many, MANY forms. I am done trying to prove anything Cinders. I am done tyring to show you why I say the things I do. God exists, and although you cannot see Him, you can see his natural creations. Satan wanders around with his minions in tow to do so much damage and cause so much to happen. He especially loves to corrupt all things such as love, logic, and confuse the minds of those who're mentally and spiritually weak from lack of support of both from friends, family, and work colleagues! Can you not see what has happened Cinders? Satan has also taken full advantage of Free Will and led people astray. He does not care about mankind, he's just making them fall away from God and that is why our world is the way it is. Granted it is from an almost strictly spiritual standpoint, but I know it better than anything else. And it makes SO MUCH more sense than logically trying to unpiece it. Using strictly mind-power to unpiece things will always bring you to a stand-still.
Take it from someone who's tried. Go ahead & call me a sheep. Most others have, but I do not care anymore.
hơn một năm qua MajorDork74 said…
And, being a Christian, Cinders, is no excuse to say "get off your high-horse." Just the opposite. I am humble before the Lord and I make myself equal to everyone around me.
I just try helping people see the light that I am following.
It reminds me of some churches around my neighborhood that read "Does the road you're traveling on lead to My Place? ~ GOD"
I am not trying to get ugly here, but the more I see happen in our country that says to me "Falling further into decadence and chaos!" the more worried I become for those who don't see what I, and my family, see.
This brand of greed & selfishness has become so epidemic that I wonder if there IS any hope. That's why I pray as much as I try.
I am not judging anybody or trying to tell anybody what & how to feel. That's God's job, not mine. I am just telling it like it is and describing what I see.
hơn một năm qua DrDevience said…
"Using strictly mind-power to unpiece things will always bring you to a stand-still. " - Some people, yes. But not ALWAYS. Not even the majority of the time.

I know that xtians like to tell themselves that 'everyone is a believer in the foxhole' but that is so smug and misinformed. Not mention untrue.

I have faced death 5 times in my life that I can bring immediately to mind... 2 of them rathe violent... and not once, ever, did I seek the help of a myth. Nor did my mind shut down. No, I got myself out of those situations entirely on my own.
hơn một năm qua Cinders said…
I obviously offended you, and I understand that you have your own values. I just think that the statement that homosexuals cannot fall in love is ignorant because it shows a lack of knowledge of the lifestyle in general. I don't think it's anyone else's place to decide whether or not someone is actually in love or not. I mentioned RENT! before, and I'll mention it again here because it's probably the best example (and most relatable/understandable, as I'm sure some people here are familiar with the play). Angel and Collins are depicted as the most functional relationship in the play. Throughout the first act (and beginning of the second) they are seen as the rock, the couple to look up to, and aspire to, because they love each other so completely, up until the very end, when (spoiler!) Angel dies. Mimi and Roger, and Maureen and Joanne, the other two main couples of the story, both reference Angel and Collins' love for each other, and wish that they could have that same thing with their significant other: "I'd be happy to die for a taste of what Angel had! Someone to live for, unafraid to say 'I love you!'"-- Mimi and Joanne, complaining to Roger and Maureen respectively.

My point is that I'm sure you have a vast amount of knowledge about your religion. Please don't doubt that I have a vast amount of knowledge of these sorts of relationships, because I have seen many in action, and literally 40% of my friends are homosexual or bisexual.

I've always considered Satan, as I've considered practically everything in the Bible, to be a personification, (or maybe more of an anthropomorphism) of evil itself. And in my opinion, I don't argue that evil is the absence of good (personified by God). But I also add that evil is the absence of love. And I have seen so much love come from homosexual people in general. Because it is not a strange quirk or fetish, like S&M. It's exactly like heterosexuality. Of course there's a sort of lust involved-- there is with heterosexuality as well-- but you wouldn't have fallen in love with your fiance, I'll bet, if you weren't sexually attracted to her as well. Homosexuals, just like heterosexuals, fall in love with their partners. And I suppose you can believe that or not, I can't change your mind with my personal observations anymore than you can change mine with Biblical supports/interpretations. But let me tell you that THAT kind of love is as true for me as God's love is as true to you. Now, if you want to believe that me and those like me have been deceived by the devil, then fine. But as far as I can see, that's your loss, not ours, to be missing out in celebrating what we believe to be love.

Who knows. Maybe you're absolutely right and we'll all burn in Hell. And maybe you're absolutely wrong, and something else happens. I believe we're all the same in death. I guess you and I can agree on one point: we'll find out for sure when we ourselves meet God and are judged by Him.
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hơn một năm qua MajorDork74 said…
DrDevience, it frightens me for you that you think your Creator is a myth. You might as well call your own parents myths. God had just as much to do with your life as your own parents did.
hơn một năm qua greekthegeek said…
I think you are who you are. God makes you a person. Why are you straight? Why are you gay ( if you are )? Why are you Lesbian? Because God made you that way. Because that's your personality. It's not a matter of sin or not. I'm really sorry that you'll go to hell because there's a "flaw" in your personality.
hơn một năm qua DrDevience said…
Worry about yourself, Major. I prefer to take personal responsibility for things in my life... good and bad.
hơn một năm qua Kegel said…
I find it interesting that some people call homosexulaity a sin on religious reasons while in other places the discussion is about including homosexual people in the religious community.

"Bishops of Norway's Lutheran church voted on Tuesday by a close majority to allow gay pastors, a church official told a press conference."


hơn một năm qua DrDevience said…
Yep Kegel. The Swedish church has long welcomed gay civil union ceremonies and backed the law to include gays in the marriage laws.
hơn một năm qua sallywag said…
love the dead bugs bit. I doubt God if he is indeed all powerful really minds if you share a bed or have a relationship with the person you love no matter there sex or yours.
I agree with cinders i come from an incredibly open minded atheist family but have a number of religous friends ranging from really orthadox to liberal and no one has ever given me a really good reason why it is wrong to be gay.
i don't think lust is a particularly bad thing, there is nothing wrong with lust it is something we all do.
i don't understand how you can use a book that says it is better to rape a poor women than a rich women as justification for hating such a large part of the population. (i don't know the exact page because we don't have a bible but we looked it up in Religous Education class.)
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hơn một năm qua harold said…
Which definition of "sin" are you using, Cinders? This thread has been wandering quite a bit, and I think part of that is due to the lack of a definition...or, rather, that different people are operating with differing definitions.
hơn một năm qua Cinders said…
This is a good question, harold, and you always bring up the importance of defining our terms, which debate does need.

In this instance, I mean what makes it morally wrong, but even that is ill-defined, as we all have different morals. I wrote an article on link in which I explored the matter and still didn't come to an ultimate conclusion. My definition of a sin is something that harms oneself or someone else physically, emotionally, or psychologically. But even this definition, as exhibited by the article, is flawed.

For the sake of this debate, we're using Biblical supports, however I can't accept the answer "the Bible says it's a sin, so it must be a sin" because the Bible claims so many things to be sins that we no longer consider to be sins. So inevitably, I feel that I am debating this with the definition that a sin is harmful to the person committing it or to other people, because logically, it's this definition that, while it has its flaws, is the most rational.
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hơn một năm qua HugsnKisses said…
Who are we to judge if its a sin or not? Why are we playing GOD? Have we spoken to him and did he gave an answer? I am not a religious person but...if GOD created the human being didn't he create us all? No exceptions. Last time I've checked they (gays) were people with feelings too. We should treat others like you want to be treated and respected. Isn't that a golden rule of life? There have been a lot of mistakes in the history like; slavery, racism, world war II, do I need to say more? Is history repeating? We should not make the same mistakes, we should be much more wiser by now. Nobody is better nor less and If they want to get married and adopt children, why not? They even would help a child by doing that. Dont we all have the same rights and we should not make a topic of this.
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hơn một năm qua seelee said…
Good question Cinders. Why is homosexuality a sin? Why is anything a sin? This is a difficult question but I think I have an answer, though it will take some background.

First, so you can understand where I am coming from, I am a Mormon. As such I belive in God and in the redeeming power of Jesus Christ. In other words, I am a Christian. I am more than a little disturbed by MajorDork 74's responses because (although his heart is in the right place) he did nothing to answer the question, and instead became defensive. I will at least try to give an intellectual, though faith-based response.

In order to understand why anything is a sin, we need to understand something about the nature of God, who He is and what He wants us to do. We also need to understand more about ourselves, where we came from (before this life), and where we are going after we die.

1. The soul is eternal, we existed before we were born. Pre-birth we lived with and knew God. We are actually the spiritual sons and daughters of God. He knows and loves each of us personally. He knows our strengths and weaknesses.

2. God is a glorified, exalted, and tangible person (I know this is a difficult concept for some, but bear with me). God's purpose is to help us to become like him. This life (mortality) is key to realizing this goal. In other words, the purpose of life is to learn and progress and become more like God (another difficult concept but supported by the Bible).

3. Think of parents raising a small child. Their purpose is to teach the child and provide the things he/she needs to grow and be physically/mentally healthy. Good parents establish rules and guidelines that the child might not understand but nevertheless are necessary for the child's development. Despite all this, the child still has free will and can rebel against his/her parents. If the child makes poor choices, he/she will have to suffer the natural consequences his/her actions. Our relationship with God mirrors our relationship with our parents (except that God is perfect).

4. God wants us to progress and be happy. He knows exactly how to do this. He gives us commandments so that we can progress and develop and eventually become like him. Some commandments are eternal in nature, while some can be revoked by God when He sees fit. The first case is analogous to a parent "commanding" his child to eat her vegetables (an eternal commandment). The parent cannot force the child to eat, but the child will not be healthy unless she eats the veggies (notice, neither the parent nor the child can change this fact it is a natural law). The second case is analogous to a parent "commanding" her child to not play with matches. Matches are not inherently evil, but the child needs to grow up a little before he can use them safely (many of the levitical laws are of this nature, and thus were fulfilled when Christ came and presented his higher law.)

5. To review, God's commandments are nothing more or less than natural laws of progression. To follow them means that we attain the attributes of godliness. To break them means that we do not progress. Punishments are simply the consequences of violating natural law. This is a great concept, It means that God is not above us watching us, making us jump through hoops for his own amusement. Rather, he is urging us along, encouraging us to continue progressing so that we can be more like Him and eventually dwell with Him.

6. So in general, sin is violation of God's natural law of progression. Committing sin means that we deny ourselves the opportunity to dwell with God and block ourselves from progressing further (It is through the redeeming grace of Jesus Christ that it is possible for us to repent and undo the effects of sin, but that is another discussion). Sin is so much more than simple public notions of right and wrong. It has eternal consequences. Just like a parent who cannot alter his child's body chemistry to allow him to eat only candy and still be healthy, God cannot revoke natural law and allow us to dwell with Him if we do not keep his commandments.

7. Now to address specifically the sin of homosexuality. To understand this one, you must understand that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. The reason for this is because man and woman need each other in order progress to the highest level possible. "Neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord" is what Paul said. Now I realize that this principle of marriage being necessary for continued progression after this life is not the consensus in traditional christianity, but lets assume its true so that I can get on to the main point.

8. If marriage between a man and a woman is necessary for eternal progression, then the reason sin of homosexuality becomes obvious. One might ask why a marriage between two men cannot allow them to progress. Two men cannot be saved together, for the same reason that two men cannot naturally create a new life. It violates natural law.

I realize that my answer will bother a lot of people, both Christian and non-Christian. I also realize that it begs several question. It also requires the acceptance of several key principles. If someone has questions about what I have said, unless they are relevant to the topic, do not post them here. Feel free to email me at

If there is no God, then there is no morality, and right and wrong are subject to the opinion of the majority. However, I say that there is a God. We are his children. If we choose to keep his commandments then one day we will live with Him and partake in His glory.

hơn một năm qua MajorDork74 said…
Cinders, one day we will ALL know the truth about EVERYTHING in our world.
hơn một năm qua XpsychotickissX said…
i dont think theres anything wrong with homosexuality, u dont choose it & u shouldnt be riduculed & hurt & kept from loving who you love & i completly dont understand whats so wrong with it
hơn một năm qua XpsychotickissX said…
& of course it comes back to the bible & god dont wanting it or not making things to be homosexual or whatever but thats religon & we have the freedom of religon & i know ppl who are gay & christian & it hurts them that thr religon doesnt support them & if we have the freedom of religon why is gay marriage not legal? ive heard ppl say "well if they make gay marriage legal then humans should be able to marry anything" ya i knopw major what the fuck there but humans r humans no matter who they love & gender shouldnt have anythign to do with love