Bangel vs Spuffy
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Bangel vs Spuffy Do bạn think Buffy ever loved Spike?
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Yes, she started liking Spike
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No, she only loved Angel
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Joss confirmed that Spike was THE man in Buffy's life at that point and that she loved him.
Also Buffy would never say she loved anyone out of pity.
Buffy sacrificed both Spike and Angel at different points, but Spike chose to go out as a hero while Angel "died" under the circumstances at the end of season 2.
The doorway scene represents Buffy wanting to make Spike know about how she felt. When he said it was the best night of his life she said she felt the same which meant that it was the best night for her as well (better than ANY night in her life inclusing the one she spent with Angel), but most important is that she was the one to start this conversation and say all those things to Spike, admitting that their feelings about that night were mutual. If it was about "keeping her nerves in check" she would not even have started talking about her feelings regarding that night, she would have just said thank you for being there for her. She wouldn't have told him that she is tired of mixed signals and that he should not be terrified by what he felt.
Buffy asked Spike to stay when she had Wood, because by her own admission she "was not ready for him not to be there". She was attached to him and I'm not saying that at that point she realized she loved him, but she had strong feelings for him as well. "Why does everybody in this house think I'm STILL in love with Spike" - not only she was trying to be in denial, but she admitted that she was IN LOVE with him.
Buffy sacrificed them both, because she killed Angel with her own hands and she respected Spike's will to save the world. Because she knew it was needed to be done. I'm not a fan of Buffy when it comes to putting the world above people you love, but that's who she is. She is a slayer. World over guys.
I clearly stated that I disagree with the fact that Buffy always put the world over people she loved but I understand WHY she did that because she was a slayer, I can say the same about her admitting she would sacrifice Dawn. I loved the fact that she refused to sacrifice her in season 5 and said that if the world dies the last thing Dawn will see is how Buffy would be fighting for her. That is why I didn't like what she said about the situation in season 7 admitting that she realized it would have been right to sacrifice Dawn.
Not for you, but for others who might read this: Spike didn't commit "suicide" but died for the world and a woman he loved. Buffy asked him to come with her, she didn't want him to stay, but he chose to stay. He chose to go out as a hero. This is not a suicide. This is not an action like that dumb thing Angel nearly did in S3, but the freaking SNOW stopped him from burning on the sun. That being said, I am not understimating Angel's hero status, but he was the one who attempted suicide. Spike when he was soulles attempted it too in season 4. But in Chosen it was not the case.
Buffy opening up to Spike about that night and telling him he should not be scared of his feelings says it all, because she said she was feeling the same. He said he was the best night of his life but he didn't know if it meant as much to her. And Buffy said it did. She confirmed she felt exactly the same way about it. Everything goes in context, her asking Spike to stay resulted in them being by each other's side in Touched, giving each other THE best night in their lives, both of them admitting it was the best night later. Spike would have sticked around even if she hadn't said ANY of those things she told him in End of Days. He would have sticked around and helped even if the night that could be Buffy's last she didn't choose to spent in HIS arms, instead of sleeping in the floor. Spike would have still sticked around because he loved her and he doesn't leave the one he loves because he cannot have sex with her. But Buffy chose to say all those things and to do all those things.
What constitutes suicide is not the intent behind it. Suicide is literally "killer of oneself"; that is what Spike was. Why he did this is superfluous. In case you have forgotten, Angel wanted to kill himself so that he would not hurt Buffy or ruin the world. He was also willing to do the same to save the world in the zeppo...just as a reminder.
Well you contradic yourself completelly here. First you say that the reasons behind choosing to die do not matter even if it was for Buffy and saving the world in Spike's case - and then right after that you give a credit to Angel for doing the same exact thing saying that in his case it was not a suicide attempt because it was for the same reasons (greater good and Buffy) that Spike had as well. This is the biggest double standard I've ever come cross.
In case, people who go to war do not commit suicide even when they know they will die, even when they know there is no chance to win. They go there to protect people they love and the world they live in. And when they sacrifice themselves for their friends in order to save them it is not a suicide by any means. This is being heroes. And that is what Spike was, a hero. That is what Angel was as well. They were willing to sacrifice themselves for the world and for the woman they loved, but Spike, unlike Angel, actually did that.
Spike: It was the best night of my life. If you poke fun at me, you bloody well better use that ‘cause I couldn’t bear it. It may not mean that much to you but—
Buffy: I just told you it did.
The bolded parts is where Buffy confirmed that that night meant exactly as much to her as it did to Spike. She didn't have to say it, she didn't have to feel it, none of them was dying and if she just wanted to be Spike's friend she would never come up with those lines. Yet she made her point clear - that night meant as much to her as it did to Spike. After he said it was the best night of his life. And she said it meant just as much to her which means that night was the best for her as well, better than any other night in her life, including the one when she lost her virginity to Angel.
You say that Angel leaving is so much more complecated than sex, I say that Spike dying for Buffy was so much more complecated than what you say it is. Obviously we are never gonna find a common ground there. My opinion is not gonna change just like yourth. To me, Angel left when he should have stayed. True hero is not the one who leaves, true hero is the one who stays. Angel didn't even take Buffy's opinion in consideration, he treated her like a "swoony little school girl" in Buffy's OWN words. He just turned his back and left. Had his love for Buffy been that epic he would have stayed and helped her, protected her even without having sex with her. It would have been hard, but this is what he should have done. They should have together searched for a way to get rid of the curse and be together, Spike found a way to bring back his soul, he went throug trials of torture for that, so why couldn't Angel do the same? Yet Buffy and Angel didn't deal with their problems in a mature way, their relationship were a short lived fairy tale and the pain they went through wasn't even worth it imo.
As for sacrifices for the greater good, like I said I understand why Buffy made those choices and yet I didn't always agree with them. Wanting to save her sister instead of sacrificing her was not just a moment of weakness, it was Buffy being human. Her humanity was the reason why she was different from other slayers and why she rebeled against the rules, the consil, the whole idea of there being just one slayer - and she lived, she survived thanks to her uniqueness.
As for your last section, did you really read what I said? I AM THE ONE WHO WROTE THAT IT WAS INDICATIVE OF HER HUMANITY. Way to rip my idea, but you didn't really carry the meaning through. Part of being human, actually the defining factor of it, is being weak; that is our condition. The other slayers were not demons; they were human, too. Buffy wasn't rebellious because she was human. Her uniqueness and what set her apart was her personality. She just had it in her to triumph over evil, disregarding selfish desires, precisely because of her willingness to make the decisions that you find disputable.
As for Buffy and Spike conversation, it all goes in context. Spike was talking about the meaning of that night to him, bringing up the fact that it was the best night of his life and he asked Buffy to not make jokes on him if that night didn't mean a lot to her, if it didn't mean as much to her as if did to him. And if it didn't she wouldn't have said anything. After he said it was the best night of his life she didn't have to say anything if she didn't feel the same way because it would be unfair to him to lie, they reached a level of trust in S7 where she wouldn't lie to him or play with his emotions. She would have stayed silent or said: "Spike, I know you care and I know you love me, and I'm greatfull that you were there with me, but that's it". No, instead she said that she was there with him, after confinrming how much that night meant to her. So obviously, after him telling her it was the best night of his life and questioning the meaning of this night to her, the fact that she said how much it meant to her confirmed that their feelings were mutual.
As for the night when she lost her virginity to Angel, it highlights the immaturity of their relationship in the greatest way ever IMO, it was an excellent methaphor of a guy sleeping with a girl and then treating her like crap. Buffy didn't know he lost his soul at that point so when he started acting like that with her she cried and acted weak and whiny. But then she grew stronger. She figured out the truth and learnt to fight. She was going to kill Angelus if needed, even if it meant killing Angel. After Angelus killed someone the first thng she said: "I'll kill him". She knew that Angel is not to blame for all those things that his soulles self did and yet she was willing to kill him without thinking about all the possible ways of bringing his soul back. Yet when Spike killed those people due to the First influence in season 7 Buffy didn't even think about killing him, she was willing to help him even if it meant risking other people's lives. Coming back to the night Buffy spent with Angel, it was definitelly special but it was something Buffy eventually got past just like she realized how immature her relationship with Angel were. She even said it herself: "And what was the highlight of our relationship? When you broke up with me or when I killed you?". She highlighted the immaturity of their relationship basically mocking it and she made it clear that it was HIM who broke up with her, that this decision was not taken by both of them like it should be in equal and healthy relationship. Angel really took this decision for her and his long life experience had nothing to do with it, it was something that had to do with their relationship and only and he should have taken her opinion in consideration. Yet he didn.t He just walked away.
That being said, I think Buffy loved Angel and a part of her always will love him. She loved both Angel and Spike which was confirmed by Buffy herself and Joss Whedon. "Why does everybody in this house think I'm still IN LOVE with Spike?" - Buffy's direct quote. "Buffy was IN LOVE with Spike" - Joss. I might prefer one relationship to another and dislike Bangel for those things I mentioned above but I'm not gonna deny canon in which she loved both guys in her own unique way.
As for the last part, I didn't even try to contradict what you said, I brought up humanity because this was something that Buffy relied on and took her strength from while other slayers tried to switch it off and some of them turned into killing machines. I agree with you that Buffy's uniqueness was in her personality and that is what I love about her. And one of the main reasons why I ship Spuffy is because Buffy and Spike were very alike when it came to it - they both didn't let the demon take over them, they both were fighting for their humanity, they both rebelled against the rules that others tried to force on them. He was the only vampire to went to fight for his soul (inspired by his love for Buffy. IMO nothing can top that). She was the only slayer who broke the ancient rule of just one slayer being everyone's protector. The reason why she got hope and a chance to win her war was Spike and she told him that in the End of Days. They were equals and they were fighters and they chose to stay together and to spend the nights that could be their last in each other's arms. Buffy didn't have to come to him and cuddle with him the last night before the battle, she could have easily gone to her friends and have a heartfelt convo with them, remembering their school years, etc. Yet, she didn't. She chose to be with Spike.
As for Buffy crying and showing human emotions, it is an entirely different thing to show your humanity when it is about saving your sister and whining over a guy who just took your virginity and now treats you like crap. The first one is being human (putting your loving one above the greater good), the second one is being dumb in my opinion. One of many indecations of how immature BA relationship were. As for the decision Angel made, I'm not saying it was not hard for him, but it was not and never will be a right thing to not take an opinion of your supposed "soulmate" in consideration, it is taking a decision FOR HER. No two ways about it. Angel took this decision for Buffy without consulting with her. Doesn't mean how hard it was for HIM. An equal relationship should not go like that. A guy, as much as older and more experienced he can be, should take an opinion of his girl in consideration, two people should take decisions together and again, no two ways about it. This is not an equal or mature love at all if it goes differently.
It was possible for a vampire to go and fight for his soul. So why wasn't it possible for Angel to do the same thing to get rid of the curse? Did he at least try to find a way? No. He just left Buffy without even respecting her opinion. Basically, when things got hard he just walked away. This is not a mature love or at least not how I see it. I'm not even gonna try to prove that Spuffy were perfect because hell they were not. They were an incredibly flawed relationship. But the difference is, and what makes Spuffy more mature, that they managed to get past those flaws and despite those flaws they sticked together. You may or may not believe that Buffy loved Spike or was in love with him, it doesn't change canon that she did. She said she did repeatedly. She told her friend she was IN LOVE with Spike. She told Spike how much that night meant to her and again, their conversation was going in context of what he said. They reached a level of trust and respect in season 7 that wouldn't allow Buffy to lie to Spike or play with his feelings after he asked her to not make jokes on him. Had she not been feeling the same as he did during that night, she wouldn't have said anything. Or she would have made it clear that she only likes him as a friend, which means that NEVER she would have told him to stop being "terrified" about his feelings for her. She would have set with him and said "I like you as a friend, but that's it". If Spike was just a friend to her, she wouldn't have put him above her other friends, she wouldn't have checked up on him first when he was hurt in the First Date even though he was a vampire and she knew his wounds wouldn't kill him, yet still she came to check up on Spike first before she payed attention to Xander who was injured way more and his wounds were actually dangerous. Finally, she wouldn't have spent the nights that could be her LAST in Spike's arms. She could have gone to her friends, people who sticked to her from the beginning, and have a heartfelt conversation with them. Yet she went to Spike instead. To me, this is mature love. Sticking together and getting past the flaws of your relationship, getting past the fact that things seemed impossible to work out. And immature love is when two people decide to break up instead of trying for each other, instead of sticking together no matter how hard it gets and being there for each other through the hardest and darkest times. That is why I don't think BA were a mature love.
Buffy didn't say her love with Angel love was tragic, she highlighted the flaws of their relationship and the fact that she acknowledged those flaws said a lot about how much she grew up and stopped idealizing what she had with Angel. She still had feelings for him, yes, but she was not longer in love with a beautiful picture. She grew out of it and so did Angel.
Angel wasn't the rebel. He was a fighter. A hero (just like Spike). But never a rebel. So often he played by the rules that life forced on him, especially on ATS. He would lock people in one room with hungry vampires because those people were bad, instead of challenging himself and not betraying himself since he was by far not the one to judge. He would get an innocent guy killed in the end of the series and say he would do it again because it is a war and a war requires sacrifices. All of it he did when having a soul, he accepted the rules while Spike was breaking them. That being said, Spike is not better than Angel and Angel is not better than Spike, just their personalities were entirely different. Angelus was not relying on his emotions when he was soulles, in fact, he tried to bury them, he hated feeling anything. Spike's feelings were what was driving him, what kept him alive and after getting his soul back nothing changed. And that is what made him and Buffy such a good match.
Buffy was a slayer and could never have a normal life. Angel knew it. He left because he stopped trying. Taking this decision for her. As for him giving up on his humanity, it was a huge sacrifice but it didn't top what Spike did when he went fighting for his soul. Having something to fall into your hands in a random manner and then giving it away - even for the sake of someone you love or out of other heroic reasons - is a sacrifice but it is not as much of a sacrifice as fighting for something for the one you love. Especially taking that Spike was soulles at that point and basically went against his whole nature by doing so.
I don't think you're clear on what it means to be a human. You cannot selectively say oh well crying in this situation is human and in another it is stupid. Both are signs of her humanity because hello she loved angel so that would be the same thing you described for dawn. Double standard again. You contradicted yourself.
I never said he didn't make the decision for the both of them. What I am saying is it was the right thing to do. Maturity is making the hard choices. Or else I guess you are saying that Joyce, Buffy's mom, (who is older than her btw), is not mature because she was the one who said that Angel had to make the decision. The reason why she had the conversation with Angel and not Buffy in the first place is because she knew that he could understand. Joyce didn't want Buffy to be hurt, but she knew it was in her daughter's best interest just as Angel knew because he agreed with her. Maturity is knowing what is best, looking out for others besides yourself, and being able to make good decisions. The fact that Buffy said at the prom "I know. I mean I understand," just nips that argument in the bud. That is maturity: having the strength to deal with hardship and bearing it gracefully.
Buffy and Angel have never idealized their love. They are always very blunt and aware of everything that holds their relationship back, but it is not anything that they control. Buffy and Spike never had to go through anything close to what Buffy and Angel had to go through. The whole universe was basically against them for goodness sakes. Do you realize that the Shanshu was the only way for Angel to be restored to humanity? You're talking about two different things here regarding Angel and Spike. Spike went to get a soul, which was obviously not impossible because guess what oh yea Angel had one already! On the other hand, you can't just go out and get a humanity. That doesn't even make sense. Humanity is something that has to be bestowed by The Powers That Be, and they explicitly told Angel that in order for that to happen he would have to avert the apocalypse.
I never said that she actually said that the romance was tragic; I was simply noting the fact that all of those things constitute a tragedy, not immaturity. They didn't grow out of anything, or else Buffy would not have said that when she thinks of having a future she thinks of one WITH HIM NOT SPIKE. Angel would not have said he feels the same. I don't think you realize that just because the actor was getting older it does not mean that Angel himself was really aging in those same stages. Angel was not a teenager when he was with Buffy and she was one. He is not really growing much in that way anymore. He knows what he wants and in 243 years he's loved EXACTLY ONE PERSON. That is obviously not going away. Buffy also said of Angel "I loved him more than I will ever love ANYTHING in this LIFE". Their words not mine. Canon, as you say.
I never said Angel was a rebel. I'm just saying that what you mentioned doesn't constitute rebellion because Angel can be described by those things as well. How did Spike rebel? War does require sacrifice, according to you. That was the example that you gave for something not being a suicide, but a heroic act, wasn't it? Yea. Contradiction AGAIN. None of your examples had to do with rules. I would love to know what your definition of the word is since you do like to make up meanings. What the hell does emotions driving you when you don't have soul have to do with anything? How does that make Spike and Buffy a good match?
Angel did know Buffy would never have a normal life, and that's why he said "That's right you'll always be the Slayer, but that's all the more reason why should have a real relationship". Buffy could still have a family i.e. children somewhere down the line regardless of her duties. Angel couldn't give that to her, but he wanted her to have it. So, he did the unselfish thing and gave her that chance. His giving up his humanity is WAAAAAAAAAY better than Spike getting a soul. He was fighting when it happened to him, in case you've forgotten. It wasn't like humanity fell from the skies and came upon him. He was out trying to do good for the world, not just himself, but it just so happened that he got something for himself in the process. Angel gave up his humanity and "every drop of human happiness that he's ever known" for Buffy. She would not have been alive at the end of the series if it weren't for Angel. Not only that, the fate of the world would have been in serious jeopardy. He did not only sacrifice thinking of himself; he sacrificed for everyone else as well.
All the emotions are being human, showing emotions is human, but humans are different and their actions are different as well, and I, as a viewer, just as you, have a right to have an opinion on the way each character behaved. Buffy whining about a guy who took her virginity and treated her like crap after that was shallow and immature. She should have just kicked his ass. I know I would. So saying that is was her being dumb is completelly legit. There are different aspects of being human. Being dumb is one of them. Showing emotions because you want a person dear to you to survive is understandable, but whining over a guy who treats you like that is stupid. And it has to do with the immaturity of BA relationship (in my opinion), that's why I brought it up.
Joyce was Buffy's mother and it is entirely different thing for her to take decisions. When it comes to romantic relationship TWO people should decisions. TWO people should consult each other, because this is how mature relationship works. And it definitelly doesn't make a mature relationship when a guy decides to leave you because HE came up with this decision (no matter how old and more experienced he is) and because HE thinks you should be with someone else. It's absolutelly not ok. TWO people make decisions in a relationship, period.
First love is one of a kind because it is FIRST and it will always be the most special feeling that you'll never experience twice with anyone else. But it doesn't mean a person can't love anyone else in some other, unique way. Buffy's love for Angel was powerful and mind blowing, idealized, first. Her love for Spike was different, according to Joss they had something: "Very grown up, romantic and confusing". And both relationships and both feelings are important. And love cannot be measured. You cannot know whom you end up loving and how much. Measuring your love is immature and again, an idealization of your previous relationship. Buffy will always love Angel and maybe she will never love anyone that way, but she will and she did love after him in a different way.
Buffy and Angel idealized each other, because they never saw the best and the worst of each other. Buffy never saw all the Angel flaws, the ones he revealed in ATS. Angel never got to deal with Buffy's growing up, her depression, her messy life, her being out of money, etc, etc. He knew her as a school girl. He didn't know Buffy the woman. Buffy had this image of a perfect guy Angel in her head and once this image was broken when she figured out he headed Wolfram and Hart, she sent an army of Slayers to LA, because she "couldn't trust him anymore". She didn't even want to listen Angel's side of things. This IS immature. And even without it, they never knew and saw each other at their worst. Angel chose to break up with Buffy and that is how their relationship ended.
I'm not saying that Angel could choose to become human, I'm saying that he could choose to go through the same as Spike, to find a way and make his soul permanent. To get rid of the curse. For Buffy. Yet he didn't do it. He started a new life in LA, was involved with other girls, procreated a son, etc. He definitelly always loved Buffy but he learnt to live without her and he chose to not fight for their relationship. He chose to not search for a way. He chose to not be there for her and help her even without sex. Spike sticked around in S6 when Buffy was dead and looked after her sister and her friends. Was Angel there for them? No. Should a loving man have been there? Yes.
Buffy didn't say she wants her future with Angel, she said that maybe one day they'll have a chance. She made it clear that she was not ready to give any promises to anyone, because she hasn't "baked" yet. All that mattered were her choices and her choice was to go and spend the night that could be her last in Spike's arms. She could have gone to her friends. Had she not have strong feelings for Spike, she wouldn't have chosen to stay with him during that night. But she did.
Angel was fighting with a demon, a regular thing he usually did. He had no idea about how this fight ends up being and that his humanity suddenly returns. He didn't go and fight FOR something because of his love for Buffy, he didn't go through trials of torture like Spike. What Spike did was so much harder, so much more painfull and so much more of a sacrifice. He chose to have a soul, he willingly put himself through madness (which is worse than death) to be a better man.
Buffy and Spike had to deal with just as much as Buffy and Angel. Vampire and Slayer, soulles vampire and a Slayer. It would have been so easy for them to give up on each other and yet they never did. Spike fought for his soul, he sticked around, Buffy grew to love him to the point when she would out him above her friends and choose to spend the nights that could be her last in his arms. They had to go through so much in their relationship and yet they overcame their flaws and built a beautiful relationship together.
Spike's emotions when he was soulles was a part of William. Some part of him still stayed after he was turned and that's why he was able to love without a soul and be loyal to Dru for all those years. That's what made him different from other vampires. He loved the world while Angelus wanted to destroy it and other vampires just didn't care. Spike's emotions led him to the point whne he loved Buffy so much that he was willing to confront his own nature. The chip doesn't change a vampire's nature, he is still a monster, he doesn't have to try to become better. Yet Spike did, all of it was because of his uniqueness and because of his emotions. Buffy was an unique slayer as well, exactly because she relied on her emotions and listened to her heart first.
Showing emotion isn't human? That is what makes us distinct from all other living beings!!!!! How can it be inhuman to show emotion if it is human to have them? Exhibiting our biology is an extension of the biology itself. Anyway, Buffy is not you, so what would what you would do in a situation have to do with anything? She was in love with Angel and as she said "love makes you do the whacky". If she felt so inclined to cry, there is no shame in that. There is no immaturity in displaying what you feel. However, there is considerable immaturity in those who would make fun of it.
In real relationships period, romantic or not, the basis should be wanting the best for the other person. So, if you know what is best and the other person cannot see it, then you are in fact OBLIGATED to make the decision. Again, Buffy apparently agrees because she said of Angel and his decision, "In the long run, I think he's right," and "I know. I mean I understand,".
Again, Joss says a lot of things. He also said that Buffy and Angel's relationship "trandscends everything" and it is an "eternal love". I don't think you can argue with the line "I loved him more than I will EVER love ANYTHING in this life,". She didn't say she loved him differently than any other person. She said that she will ALWAYS love him MORE.
I love how you selectively answer things and without much proof. Again, what did Buffy and Spike have to go through? Nothing at all like her thinking that he bit her mother, The Judge, his turning into Angelus, Acathala, the First, the Faith ordeal, and the reality of mortality keeping them apart. They've never idealized these things. Loving someone is thinking the best of them regardless of their flaws. That doesn't mean that you do not recognize them or ignore them, but you take the bad with the good because you feel that the latter outweighs the former. The fact that they didn't say "hey you're so flawed" every minute to one another doesn't mean that they were oblivious to their presence in each other. Buffy and Angel always called each other out on their crap like when Angel said that Buffy was acting like a "brat" in Graduation Day Part 1 and when Buffy told Angel that he was wrong for how he treated her in The Yoko Factor.
Um, making his soul permanent would involve becoming human. The fact that he got his soul through a curse means that he cannot take the same road as Spike. THE ONLY way for him to make his soul permanent is to avert the apocalypse and become human. Buffy continued her life with other guys. So what? The fact is that none ever meant as much to them as each other. Every person that they were with could tell that, even your boy Spike, and they themselves knew it, too. Angel had a life that involved SAVING THE WORLD. (Insert concept of the greater good here). As Cordelia said about him after his death when he felt like he was betraying her "you're a good guy, who’s still fighting and trying to help people, and that’s not betraying her, that’s honoring her,". That is the best thing that he could have done: fight. Buffy told him once "Strong is fighting" when he wanted to wallow about his selfish problems instead. He remembered and carried on her legacy, which in turn keeps her alive. That is love.
Buffy did say that she wants her future to be with Angel. She said, "it would be a long time coming, if ever" when she was done baking to have a life with him. She also said that she "doesn't see fat grandchildren in the offing with Spike". So, that's the way the cookie crumbled. One night in a person's arms does not compare to many future nights in the arms of another.
Just because Angel didn't choose to have a soul doesn't mean that he hasn't spent every moment since he was cursed with one trying to be a better "person". Do you know how many trials Angel has gone through? He's had his soul longer than Spike. The amount of guilt that he harbored was enough to drive anyone insane, but he kept pressing forward in order to be better. My point is not that he was fighting for his humanity, but that he was fighting for humanity as in the human race. That is more important, and it also has a sense of poetic justice about it know that I think of it that it was in that predicamet that he received his own humanity again. Buffy still reaped the benefits of it, even if for only one forgotten day...
How are you trying to hold the actions of Angelus against Angel? Angelus still retained part of Liam, but you have to remember that Liam did not have a very nice life. His father thought that he was a failure, he was a drunkard, and never got a chance to do anything with his life. William, on the other hand, found some joy in his poetry and was generally compassionate as a result. Soulless Spike would therefore retain the memories of a person that knew goodness, whereas Liam did not. It's hard not to hate the world given his environment. Anyway, Angel has nothing to do with that, and it's irrelevant. Buffy was a unique Slayer, yea I got that. It does not mean that she was made for Spike. Angel was unique, as well, if not more so.
And it is the stupidest thing for person EVER to say that she/he loved someone more than they WILL ever love anyone or anything, because they don't know whom and when they might end up loving, and how much. Buffy couldn't know that either, especially prior last episodes of S7, such as Touched. And that line exactly points out at the immaturity of Bangel relationship, at the idealization, at the unrealisticness. People CAN love more than once and they never know whom and how much they end up loving.
I didn't say that crying is not human, I said exactly the opposite thing, that it IS human. But it being human doesn't make it any less dumb when a girl whines over a guy who took her virginity and treated her like crap after that. And yes, I think Buffy should have kicked his ass for such a behaviour. But she tuned into whiny, weeping and weak girl with him.
Buffy didn't say she is gonna spend "many future nights with Angel". Not even close. She said "IF EVER", which implied that it might not even happen AT ALL. And at that point she was not ready to decide what she really wants because she wasn't done baking. Had she promised her future to Angel, she would have said: "One day we will be together, I love you and only you". Yet no. She didn't say it. She said that she still thinks about the possibilities, but it might not even happen. She also said Spike was in her heart and asked Angel to "not go all Dawson" on her everytime she had a boyfriend. As far as I remember, Dawson didn't get the girl in the end, because she chose the "bad guy" Pacey, even though Dawson was labled as her "soulmate" and she definitelly loved him too.
Buffy having blury thoughts about future that she didn't even know what held, and didn't even know whom she wanted to spend it with (that's why she didn't see grandchildren with Spike, which was impossible by the way, because vampires cannot procreate; and that's why she told Angel "IF ever") is not even half as powerfull as her CHOOSING (in present and in reality) to spend the night that could be her LAST in Spike's arms.
Relationship is taking decisions TOGETHER. It doesn't matter if a person that you took a decision for one day understands why you did it or even thinks it was a right decision, AFTER you already broke up. Because when you are IN a relationship, TWO people should take decisions together. This is a mature love. People should tick together and work through their issues. Bangel ddin't do that. Angel chose to break up with Buffy and took that decision for her. He didn't see Buffy growing up. He didn't see her dealing with adult problems nor did he help her through it. Also, as a loving man, he SHOULD have been there for her friends and Dawn, and it is not selfish at all, it is acting the way every loving man should act. It doesn't mean he should have stopped fighting, it means that he should have just been there. Soulles Spike was there and protected Dawn. Angel with a soul couldn't care less about the fact that the person Buffy loved more than anyone alone with her mom was left practically orphaned. This is not how mature relationship goes. It doesn't matter if Angel called Buffy's high school version out on her immaturity and wrongdoings and if Buffy called Angel out on something or was aware of his flaws. They were immature and idealized because they kept living in a dream, idealizing their love to the point when they would break up, stay away from each other, not be there for each other through the darkest and hardest times (this is what soulmates do - they are being there for each other through such times. Angel was only there once - when Joyce died. And only because Buffy called him) and still one of them would say that their love was so perfect that she will never love anyone like that, even though, again, it is impossible to know how many times you love and who else you end up loving. Even married people don't know that and don't come up with this kind of nonsensical statements. Also immaturity is when a guy comes to your town after 3 years, 3 horrible years of loss and depression that you had to endure, and acts like a jealus 14 years old while he had just said goodbye to his son forever (worst thing a man can do is forget about his children because of a girl).
There was nothing in the story that would point at the fact that Angel could not do the same as Spike. He could have at least tried. He could have gone there and gone through the same as Spike did due to get rid of the curse and make his soul permanent. Or search for other ways. Also, Spike fought FOR human race and humanity as a fighter/warrior too, including the day when he sacrificed himself for the world, due to get rid of the First and of evil, due to make the world and Buffy's life a better place. It doesn't matter if Angel had a soul for a larger periode of time and therefor fought with more demons, because his soul was forced on him by the curse and it was not his choice to have it. It absolutelly doesn't take away the fact that Angel was a hero, but he the ammount of time since he had been one is not something he gets a credit for. Especially taking that he spent a hell load of time being lost and only when Whistler showed him the right path he started fighting for good. Spike was the one who CHOSE to have a soul, CHOSE to go through madness and all those things he did for Buffy and for the world. Which makes him a better match for Buffy in my eyes. Spike was a fighter just like Angel yet it didn't take away the fact that he also fought for his soul by practically challenging his entire nature. And if a soulles vampire found a way to get his soul back by fighting the monster inside him, the a vamoire with a soul couldhave found a way to make his soul permanent.
Liam was a womanizing drinker and he had just as many problems - and in fact, less problems - than any guy of his time. Daddy issues doesn't give you a free pass for bastardy and they are not the reason to hate the world. And I do not use Angelus' actions against Angel at all and never would. I only pointed out at the fact that Spike without a soul had more humanity than ALL the soulles vampires, including (but not limited) Angelus. His humanity was what made him different, even though he loved being a vampire. He was a contradictive person just like Buffy. Spike was not a normal vampire and Buffy was not a normal slayer. And that's why they clicked.
Now, finally, about what did Buffy and Spike had to go through. Um, season 5-7. Spike developing feelings for Buffy and getting into contradiction with his entire nature. Challenging it and trying to fight the monster inside him, which seemed impossible and yet he fought and in the end he succeeded. Buffy going through depression in season 6 and Spike always being there for her, the dark periode of their relationship that they managed to overcome and later, in S7, build something beautiful together. Spike being used and then kidnapped by the First and Buffy saving him in Showtime. Buffy realizing how much Spike meant to her and choosing him over other people she loved time and time again. Them going through the war that seemed impossible to be won and still sticking together untill the end. Buffy's VERY last word on the show being "Spike". They went through everything together and never walked away.
Regardless of whether you think Buffy's statement about her love for Angel was stupid, she said it anyway. And it is not stupid to say that regardless of who they end up loving that they will always love each other more. Actually, it's pretty much a fact. If you go into a relationship with a block, thinking that no one will ever measure up to your "ex" (I know Buffy cannot stand referring to Angel in this way or Angel calling her that for that matter), then nothing is really going to come of that relationship. Nothing can develop when a wall is up. Touched may not have changed anything for her, although I know you would like to believe that it did. That is not indicative of immaturity. In fact, Buffy had grown up so much at that point that if she wanted to relinquish her love for Angel, she could have. The fact that she still felt that deeply about him just shows that true love (not puppy love) doesn't go away, and you can't simply grow out of it.
My dear, Buffy is not you. She would react differently in a situation than you, especially since you don't even like Angel and she LOOOOVES him. So now for one of your contradictions (I love these; there's at least one per post). You say that you're not holding Angel accountable for Angelus, but you're acting like it was the same "person" who was treating her like crap as the one who slept with her. Angel made love to Buffy; Angelus was the one who proceeded to be an a-hole. She had every right to cry. She thought that the man she loved was gone FOREVER, not just boohoo my baby's treating me mean. You only invest tears in the ones you love, and I think the proof regarding Buffy's heart is then in the drops.
Uh the reason why she said "if ever" is because she didn't even know if she was going to be alive! Buffy did have a pressing battle the next day that would determine the fate of the entire world! She did say that she didn't want to DECIDE because she wasn't done baking; however, when she happened to ENTERTAIN the thought, every time her thoughts went to Angel. Obviously, then, she would not make a definitive statement like "One day we will be together, I love you and only you,". She asked Angel not to "go all Dawson" on her because she wanted him to realize that he wasn't "getting the brush off" for Spike. There was no reason for him to be insecure because it will always be him. And Pacey wasn't a bad guy. Anyway, what does who ended up with who in Dawson's Creek have to do with this? Just because they made an allusion to it there is no need to take it so literally. Obviously, Buffy ended up with neither guy. That wasn't the point.
No. Buffy had a good idea that she wanted to spend her future with Angel. I'm well aware of the vampire predicament, thank you. So was Buffy, by the way. She said it to prove a point: her future is not with Spike. It's just a cute and funny way of saying it (irony) because both we, the audience, and her and Angel know that it is impossible. Hmmm, the rest of your life vs. the present day, I think the first greatly outweighs the second.
Again, Joyce has a relationship with Buffy, yet she forced the decision. It was precisely because of her maturity that she did so. The same goes for Angel. I mean he was old enough to be her ancestor, as he said. The reason why people call their mate their better half is because in what they themselves lack in attribute or ability, the other makes up for. What Buffy couldn't see, Angel could. He did what was best for BOTH of them. Now, Angel may not have seen her transition from each stage, but he saw her once she got to those stages. He saw her in season 4 when she was in her freshman year and when she was a full-blown woman in season 7. That's enough. He respected the growth and change that she underwent during this time and told her so himself. Angel did more for Buffy in that one time in Forever than Spike ever did in that way. Buffy didn't call Angel for him to come; he came running because he loved her. I don't know what married people you know, but the ones that I know are very secure in their love and have no problem making these sorts of statements about how much they love each other. If they do not feel that way, then they shouldn't be married. Some people have always known who the one was; that's just a testament to the power of their love. Buffy and Angel have that kind of love. And Angel never forgot about his son. That's why when they said to spend the day with the person he loved the most in the world he didn't choose Buffy, he chose his son.
Actually, everything in the story points to the fact that Angel couldn't do the same thing as Spike. Angel had a GYPSY curse. Not even the gypsies themselves, as Jenny Calander so heartbreakingly reminded Buffy, could deal with that spell anymore because that magic was long-lost to their people. All that searching for something that's not there is going to prove is that the something is NOT THERE. There is no alternative here. Just because Angel didn't choose to have a soul doesn't mean anything. The fact is that he could have easily gotten rid of it at any time. I mean once he made love to Buffy he knew how to get it done, but he didn't. He continued to fight evil because he knew that he had a lot to atone for. Why keep punishing people for past deeds? That is not fair. If someone who has done wrong in the past presently wills to do good and wants to continue in that manner in the future it should not be discouraged or scoffed at just because the road that they took to get to that place was not ideal. You're making fun of someone for being lost? It wasn't like he was out killing during this time. Whistler gave him an option, but Angel made the decision. He didn't have to turn his life around. He could have kept up eating rats and hiding in dark alleys. Ok, Spike got a soul. If getting a soul is the only qualification for being the best match for Buffy...wow.
I never denied that Liam was a drunkard and yes he was a womanizer. How did he have less problems than other guys of his time? I am amazed at how you can just trivialize people's emotions so readily. "Daddy issues", really. I never said he had a free pass for his actions because of his problems with his father, but one must look at the context from which behavior springs before judging it elsewhere. How is Buffy a contradiction any more than a normal person? People can be "abnormal" in different ways, as well. Just because two people can be supposedly lumped together in such a broad category does not mean that they are suddenly meant to be. Besides, like I said, likeness does not necessarily make a romantic match.
Lastly, Buffy and Spike were not really in a relationship when these things happened. Buffy never called Spike her boyfriend and vice versa. Sleeping together a few times, as Angel said, does not make a relationship. It's much harder to face these things while actually having to be accountable to the other person in the process and the aftermath. Spike walked away...and so did Buffy, with a big smile on her face for that matter.
That is the whole point - Buffy's wall was up, but Spike broke through the wall and Buffy said how much that night in Touched meant for her and it's not me who chooses to believe it, but Buffy who said it herself. She might have said what she said about Angel and that she will never love anyone more, but the truth is that she can't KNOW that. It is impossible to know that. She can know that she will love Angel forever (and even that people can never know for sure), but she cannot know whom she ends up loving in the future and how much. That's why saying stuff like that is absolutelly immature and doesn't contribute to the truth, because it is impossible to know such a thing. She didn't know how she ends up feeling for Spike in season 5 either, she didn't know what kind of a connection they develop in the future. Rememer how she said that he only gets a chance with her if she will be unconscions? Yet, still, this statement ended up being false, because she didn't KNOW what might come out of her relationship with Spike and eventually she ended up getting into an affair with him and later, in S7, getting closer to him than she could ever imagine to get close to him. That is why ANY predictions about how a future can go don't work because no one knows it. Buffy cannot know whom she ends ao loving more as well.
Buffy never opened up to Riley the way she opened up to Spike. She never opened up to her friends the way she opened up to Spike. Even in S6 Spike was the one she could share her deepest secrets with. This is not something she could predict. Spike giving her so much strength in Touched that made her tell him how she felt is not something she could predict. Finally, she definitelly couldn't predict that SPIKE would be the person she chooses to spend the night that could be her last. In present. Nothing takes away this choice, even if she still loved Angel. If she didn't love Spike, he definitelly wouldn't be the one for her to spend her possible last night on earth with. And yes, it and this her decision is way more powerful than any "if's" and "maybe's" she gave to Angel.
She didn't say anything about Angel "always being the one", not even close. She said "if ever" not because she thought she might die, but because she was not ready to make a decision yet. She made it clear by saying she wasn't baked yet. And again, she couldn't and this time she didn't make any predictions about the future, because she didn't know how this future ends up being, when will she be ready for anything with Angel or Spike, what will it mean for her to be "baked" and what kind of choice will she make when she is "done baking". And then she said "IF ever". "If" is the key word. No decisions or promises were made. Just a notion that Buffy still has feelings for Angel and still thinks about the possibilities. The fact that she brought up Dawson was a reference to the show and that's why I pointed at the fact that Dawson didn't get the girl. Buffy associated Angel with a guy who loved a girl but didn't get her in the end and she wasn't giving him a brush off, she was letting him down easily and she was not ready yet to make any decisions (see whay I wrote above).
Obviously Buffy is not me or you and she loved angel, but it doesn't make her behaviour (at least in my personal opinion) towards a guy who treated her like crap after sex any less immature and weak. And no, once again, I do not use Angelus (!) treating Buffy like crap against Angel, I only point at Buffy's behaviour here, she didn't even know Angel lost his soul and still whined over the fact that he treated her like that after taking her virginity. This is one of many reasons why I see their relationship as immature, Buffy was not able to stand up for herself when she thought it was Angel, she could only stand up for herself in a fight with Angelus. But when it came to her relationship with Angel she turned into a weak and dependent girl with him. And I never for a second tried to argue with the fact that Buffy loved him, my point was entirely different.
The fact that Angel was not THERE through Buffy's growing up, through all the complecations she had to go through on her way of maturing and becoming more strong and powerful very much does matter. Because that is the WHOLE point of a relationship: sticking to the one you love and helping this person through everything, seeing this person's ups and downs, seeing the darkest and the brightest sides of this person in a process, being there for this person through all the times. That is the point of mature and equal relationship. Coming ocne in a while and looking at how much progress this person has made without you in his/her life is not a mature love at all.
Romantic relationship and mother/daughter relationship are entirely different and I don't get how can they even be compared? Mother has rights to take decisions for her underaged daughter. A guy has no right to take decisions for you, no matter how more experienced he might be. TWO people take decisions in a romantic relationship. And that is exactly the point of being each other's better half - to take decisions together and share everything.
I'm not saying anything about season 5(!) of ATS (that took place when BTVS was already over) and Angel's growth in that season. His growth was one of the greatest things about that season. THIS time he chose his son and acted like a mature person. BUT in Chosen he acted the way a father should never act: after losing his son in such a horrifying way ("killing" him with his own hands, then whiping his memories and integrating him intp other family) he is being all about Buffy dating or not dating Spike, "aha! so he IS your boyfriend!". No, this is not how mature love should go. And in season 5 of ATS Buffy proved a growth too even though she wasn't even there: she sent an army of slayers to LA, because she couldn't trust Angel anymore. Because once he destroyed the beautiful picture of himself that she had in her head (the idealization I was talking about) it autamatically resulted in her losing her trust in him. And Buffy, according to her, can't love the one she cannot trust, she said it to Spike in season 6. But he gained her complete trust in season 7 so she could trust him with eyes closed. Angel lost her trust eventually.
Nothing held Angel from TRYING. Everything seems impossible, it is always impossible and yet people still try. It was beyond impossible for a soulles vampire to go and fight for his soul, challenging his whole nature, going against everything that a vampire should be. That's why Spike ended up being the only vampire in history who did that. To be a better man and for Buffy.
Angel's hero status was never denied by me. Obviously he chose to be a hero and I was not mocking him. We were talking about choices and which choice was harder and in my opinion it was definitelly Spike's, because like I said it was going against everything, every rule and doing the impossible to become a hero and to deserve a woman he loved. Angel having his soul forced on him and having Whistler to ahow him the way while he was already with a soul was a big deal, but not as much of a big deal as for a soulles vampire to be a hero, inspired by his love for Buffy.
I never and never would say that likeness makes a good match. And Buffy & Spike were not alike in many ways, they completed each other. I brought up those qualities of character that they shared because they made them a good team and made them understand each other well, even when Spike was soulles. Finally, I never said that there is anything wrong in being drinker or womanizer, obviously Liam was bastard on many levels, but he was not a BAD man. I never said that. But hating the whole world because of daddy issues? I don't think so. This was not the reason why Angelus was so cruel, he was cruel because he wanted to feel less. While Spike, even when he was soulles, wanted to feel more. Like Buffy; she wanted to feel, because feelings helped her function, it kept her alive. And that is something important that helped Spike and Buffy understand each other even when he was soulles and helped them to develop a connection that further on series was important for them to form a real bond and grow to trust each other.
So were not Buffy and Angel in season 3. They were not sleeping together and they were not in a romantic relationship in general meaning of that word, nor were they searching for ways to be together (a grown up man like Angel could find ways to satisfy his woman even without traditional sex). They were not an actual couple and yet they went back and forth and then chose to "officially" break up and Angel walked away. He could have and should have still sticked to Buffy. Be right by her side like a loving man. Even without sex, even with her being with someone else (sticking around and dealing with the pain that her being with another man could have caused him. Like Spike in S7 wanted Buffy to be happy and didn't mind her going out with Wood, though he sticked around, helped and protected her till the very last second of his life). Buffy and Spike never walked away after they developed the kind of connection they had in S7. They sticked together as one, till the end.
But Bangel speaks for itself
There is nothing left to utter
Economy of words is wealth
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